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Offline Lukmendes

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Tier list
« on: September 20, 2015, 05:35:44 PM »
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I feel like it's about time to put one in here.

Done based on 0.6.20 (mostly based on 0.6.17a, but most characters didn't change much, so they remain the same), will change it based on updates.

The list works like this:

S+ tier: Charlotte and Loretta's tier, they're above everyone else because of their very solid tools, even when in lower HP they can still win fights, both have high damage and are safe, though Loretta is the most damaging and safe one, but Charlotte with higher shot upgrades can heal pretty well, fast MP recovery is pretty good for them too.

S tier: Virtualy no bad matchups against bosses those characters have things like high damage, strong zoning, good deffensive tools and whatnot, if they lack in one area, they overcompensate in another, their worse matchups are generaly not that tough, they can generaly afford to commit more mistakes (Specialy healers).

S- tier: Characters who are overall strong, but are sifnificantly weaker than the S tiers, they have basicaly everything they need.

A tier: Solid characters, but they lack something to make them as strong as the S tiers.

C+ tier: Ronald after being buffed.

Frog Tier: The best strategy you can make, is to pick someone else.

Now for the list itself:

Arcade mode:

S+ tier: Charlotte, Loretta

S tier: Montano, Soma, Stella, Hanz, Alucard, Marias, Chronicles Simon, CV4 Simon, Nathan, Sonia, Axe Armor, Shanoa, Albus, Persephone

S- tier: Yoko, Richters, Carrie, Juste, Duke Nukem, Maxim, Hugh, Julius, 8-bit Simon, Sakuya, Werewolf, Reimu, Grant, Serious Jonathan, Master Skeleton

A tier: Death, Jokenathan, Hammer

C+ Tier: Ronald

Frog tier: Frog

I'll see if I post one for Survival mode later, it's harder to make a tier list for that because I'd have to judge characters with or without double/triple/quadruple shots separatedly, also, I'll judge it based on The Abyss/Abandoned Village, other stages can give a gigantic advantage to specific bosses, even worse against some characters who lack a specific tool, those two stages are the best "Universal" stages available.

Any suggestions on changes are welcome, since I haven't analyzed all characters properly (Like Hugh), and some characters I'm not entirely sure if they should be where I put them (Like Julius or Death).

Character analysis

Reimu

(click to show/hide)

Sakuya

(click to show/hide)

Sonia
(click to show/hide)

Edit: Forgot to mention, I'm using Nightmare mode as the difficulty to judge the tier position, the other difficulties are very deceiving about how good some characters are.

Edit 2: To avoid confusions, I made a list to mention what a character needs to be in a certain position in the list.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 07:41:27 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2015, 05:37:17 PM »
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Before I start suggesting things, what actually separates them in categories? Is it damage-wise or versatility?


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2015, 05:43:16 PM »
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Before I start suggesting things, what actually separates them in categories? Is it damage-wise or versatility?

Just how well they deal with bosses in general, though having high damage and versality are included in this since there are bosses who are good at hitting you (Orlok for example), so being good at killing those bosses is important.

There's also some more "unique" things, Hanz is S tier because he's a more damaging Richter, and while his HP and deffenses are bad, those two can be solved with HP upgrades, which makes things less dangerous for him, which makes it much easier to kill bosses, Alucard can choose to go upgrading both HP and MP, Soma as well, and with their pretty solid movesets, they're put in S tier as well.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2015, 09:48:53 AM »
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So, having played Master Skeleton for some time, I notice he hasn't changed much since the first time I played with him on Nightmare (about version 6.01 that time), with the only difference his halberd rush ff+A, where you can make him dash or not and the crouching versions were added on his attacks.

Based on my experience he in my opinion fits somewhere around B or A- (possibly A though but I'm also not too sure):

He's great at close range, with decent basic attacks and his ff+A/C doing good damage, and he has bdf+A/C as a fast gap closer and as a semi-reliable corner escape.

His sub-weapons are similar to those of a generic whip user (rib=dagger, bone=axe, bone cross). In fact, since he has a whip, he can do things as a whip-user as well (helps against Dracula's blobs and wolfs, LD's skulls, etc.)

He also has nice anti-air capabilities especially with Alt. Bone, doing nice damage to airborne targets, not to forget his giant bone dealing more hits against air targets.

But the thing is, he's not too special in long ranges. His Rib is pretty much a destructible dagger and while it's Alt. form does more damage, it's arced downwards. His laser can be used in such situations as well, but it takes time to charge for it to be effective and his giant bone doesn't do much on ground targets. It's true though that he has decent running speed to compensate for this, but he'll have difficulties against bosses that have range advantage and can easily punish characters who are mainly close combat. (Cerberus, Stella, etc.)

Another main issue is his movelist. It's filled with mostly physical damaging moves, with laser being the only magical attack and it doesn't make quite a lot for it. (Main reason why I don't really play him a lot in Nightmare).


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2015, 11:49:04 AM »
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I don't really see Master Skeleton being on A tier, that's where characters who are seriously solid characters are, those who have next to no bad matchups against bosses, he doesn't really looks like he belongs there, but I could be wrong (I did think at some point that Yoko and Carrie were weak lol).

Not having many magical attacks is fine, laser works on the matchups where it's supposed to work, real problem is his zooning and how situational his item crash is, he also seems like he lacks an attack which goes through shields, which makes the Medusa matchup hellish.

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 02:32:26 PM »
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would changing his item crash so that the bone hits only once but for much more damage help?

the bouncing bone cross will pass through shields now.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 04:10:24 PM »
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Quote
would changing his item crash so that the bone hits only once but for much more damage help?

It would help in my opinion, because on most ground targets it hits only once or twice if you're lucky, but on flying bosses it hits more.


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 05:37:20 PM »
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would changing his item crash so that the bone hits only once but for much more damage help?

Yeah it would, that way he'd have a good way to damage Olrox when he puts the purple faces up (If there's enough range that is, haven't tested), or when he summons the familiars, plus it'd be usable against ground bosses if he can get close enough (Exception to Richter probably, because of Whip Rush)

I think it'd need to do above average damage as well, similarly to why Julius' Grand Cross dos high damage, because of the more limited uses.

Anyway, moved Duke to A tier, 8-way shotgun is too good, and the shotgun has really good range too, f,f attack is great and his item crash is really damaging, his biggest weak point is that he's a bit slow, but he compensates that with the damage and range.

Also moved Maxim to A tier, though he doesn't really have a zooning sub weapon like a dagger, the shurikens do a nice work with proper positioning, and the Kunais are excellent at close range, plus he has an unique damage item crash and his healing is really good if he has enough time to use it (like against Medusa for example), his very fast movement is pretty good too.

Also, with Hammer's ability to throw more incineration grenades, and having a smart bomb which goes forward, he could go up too since theoricaly that can help to solve his problem of not dealing with projectiles very well, I'll do tests later.

Offline Medlin

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2015, 03:05:11 PM »
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would changing his item crash so that the bone hits only once but for much more damage help?
Maybe make 2 item crashes, like for Alucard? Remain this as anti-air one and add strong but 1 hit as the second one.

Offline Zufeng

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 01:44:58 PM »
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S tier: Sakuya, Reimu, Charlotte, Montano, Soma, Stella, Loretta, Hanz, Alucard

A tier: Sonia, Shanoa, Yoko, Nathan, Richters, Carrie, Juste, Axe Armor, CV4 Simon, Serious Jonathan, Duke Nukem, Maxim

A- tier: Hugh, Albus, Julius, Chronicles Simon, 8-bit Simon

B tier: Hammer, Werewolf, Persephone, Death, Jokenathan, Frog

lol tier: Ronald


Uhh you write A tier twice
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Offline VladCT

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 01:52:53 PM »
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A and A- (minus) actually, there's a difference.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2015, 04:58:41 PM »
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Did a small update, I decided to make a B+ tier to put Persephone, Hammer and Werewolf there, since they feel stronger than the other characters, and I added Master Skeleton in B tier, and honestly, he feels like the weakest character in there.

I'll try to think of ways of getting the B and B+ characters buffed to move them to A- tier at least, I think it'd better for the weakest character still be in A- tier at least, it'd be better for everyone to be pretty strong, by doing that, future or current bosses could become strong/stronger since the whole cast would be solid,  no need to make a boss weaker because there are some characters who are too weak to deal with them. That would be important to make bosses like Galamoth and Somacula to be strong but still beatable by the cast.

Of course, the weaker characters can't receive just any buff, one of Death's weak points is that his zoning sucks, buffing his zoning tools like the scythes of the green orbs would help him, but it'd remove his uniqueness of being a character where he's far more effective at up close ranges, so he'd need to receive different buffs, maybe his stop watch could waste less MP for him to be able to create more opportunities to attack? His MP recovery is pretty slow after all, so it wouldn't be abusable.

Hammer is a character who I feel like he has potential to move higher, the recent buff of receiving the alternate version of Smart Bombs is pretty good for him, Persephone could be higher as well, those two are the ones I'm most unsure about leaving them in B+ tier, but I haven't played enough with them to know for sure if they should be higher.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 09:17:57 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2015, 02:57:34 AM »
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Now that 0.6.17 is out, I did a small update, just removed Marias from "Absolute god tier", now they're in S.

Hugh, Hammer, Persephone, Death, Jokenathan, Master Skeleton, Ronald, those characters are probably going up (Master Skeleton definitely is going up, I'm just not sure how much), though I don't know how much stronger they've gotten since I just read their buffs and tested them a bit on practice mode, will do proper testings later.

Edit: Actualy, the list might receive some more changes besides those, with bosses becoming stronger now, some characters might drop, the most obvious one would be Hanz since he could end up having a harder time because of his lower deffenses, 8-bit Simon as well for similar reasons.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 12:14:58 AM »
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I updated the list a bit with the most "obvious" things:

CV4 Simon and Chronicles Simon in S: They have all the good generic Belmont stuff, + laurels, which although isn't nearly as overpowered as it used to be, it's still pretty damn good, their unique advantages, 8-way whipiing and flame whip mode respectively, are also really good, 8-bit Simon isn't near in S tiers because of his jumps, which can make him more vulnerable, so he can't turtle as effectively as the other two, which also makes him the worst healer on the game.

Nathan in S: DSS mode is already pretty good as a power up mode, it healing Nathan when he hits something with the whip only helps, the clone is also pretty good now.

Sonia in S: Similar to the other two with the healing, plus other good shit like her overpowered burning soul item crash, honestly think that should be nerfed since it's basicaly like Hydro storm used to be, in other words, outclasses the other item crashes (She'd still be in S tier regardless).

I could make other changes, but I'm not really sure about them, those are:

Death: Move him up, maybe to A-, that's because his b,d,f wastes significantly less MP now, his up,qcf wasting less MP might make it be worth to be used in specific matchups, and the green orbs receiving damage boots is pretty good, while he's definitely stronger, I'm not sure how much stronger, who knows, he could end up going to A tier.

Ronald: While I don't think he should leave the "lol" tier status, he's stronger now because of the damage upgrades the hamburguer receives.

Jokenathan: Similar reasons as Ronald to move up, with his pies, the damage upgrade is really good.

Anyone with a cross: The cross sub weapon is amazing now, if it weren't for the high ammount of MP it wastes it'd easily make Holy Water useless, everyone with it is significantly stronger (Specialy characters like Juste and Carrie who have faster MP recovery), so they could easily go up.

Hanz might really drop, he's quite a fragile character with his "kill the opponent ASAP" playstyle, bosses becoming stronger the more bosses you fight affects him more than anyone else by far, specialy against bosses like Brauner and Orlok (Death theoricaly would do that as well, but Hanz can kill him very quickly), maybe his magic vulnerability could be toned down (Honestly always thought that 200% was too much, now it's even worse).

Sakuya is a character I'm not sure if she should stay in S tier, for a while I've been thinking that she's around the same level as Shanoa, then again, that might mean that Shanoa is good enough to go up, but I'm not really sure about that, Sakuya compared to Soma, he just seems significantly better since he has a really good move for every situation, Sakuya just feels a bit weaker (But then again, unlike Soma, she barely wastes MP, so she has more/better uses for stop watch, her item crashes are far better than Soma's as well...).

I'm not playing the game as much lately, so it might take a while to test those characters.

I decided to include an explanation for each tier, maybe someday I'll write explanations for each character's moves (Normals, specials, sub weapons), I probably won't though, lol.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 12:22:42 AM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 01:01:02 PM »
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Updated the list a bit more, Hugh, Julius and Albus went to A tier both because all of them received significant buffs and because I understimated some of their stuff, which made me think they weren't as good as others.

Moved Death to A-, the green orb receiving damage upgrades is neat, and his b,d,f doesn't waste as much MP now, so it can be used enough (The charge time is still pretty slow, which balances how it doesn't waste as much MP as other b,d,f moves), ice/dark orbs receiving damage upgrades now, well, it doesn't help that much since those sub weapons aren't as "abusable" as the green orb or the mini scythes, but it helps on more dangerous matchups like Richter.

Jokenathan to B+ because of the buffs pies get, those help him a lot on matchups where he can turtle more.

I'm feeling tempted to move Werewolf and Persephone to A-, but I still haven't done a proper playthrough with them to be sure if they should be moved there.

I don't really play with Frog, but he has the same b,d,f buff as Death, which probably helps enough, his lower than average damage when zoning can be a problem though, and I'm not really sure on how good he is at destroying projectiles, I'm thinking more about Dracula 2's purple projectiles, but since he can fly, he probably can use a similar strat other flight characters can use (double jump, super jump, fly forward, then go down, then use probably up,qcf attack to destroy the projectiles), but since I don't have much knowledge with him (Only played with him once), I have my doubts about moving him higher, he does seem like he has potential for B+ at least though.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2016, 11:03:17 AM »
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So, I've been messing around with Master Skeleton for a while, he's definitely the second worst character on the game, slow MP recovery, he's slow, doesn't hit that hard, his b,d,f, and the bone cross are what make him not be completely useless, the glitch with his rib and alt rib just make it worse for him (Though, not as bad as I expected), and it's odd that his item crash hits only a bit harder than Simon's, while not being as "abusable".

I'm not saying he's trash, but he has those noticeable weak points, which is why he's below almost everyone.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention, moved 8-bit Simon to A tier, while he can have trouble in some atchups because of his jumps, his damage, laurels and him taking less damage from multi hits moves make up for it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 02:34:12 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 11:16:18 PM »
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Moved Jokenathan to A-, the buffs pies get is better than I expected, and and his qcf attack is pretty awesome, probably the best on the game, pretty good to use in some flight opponents with jump, C, qcf attack, then after he recovers use the pie, his melee game is pretty good because of his lollipop, so he doesn't have trouble to do damage meterless if he can get close enough, only thing that's worse is his matchup against Dracula, curry is ignored by phase 2 Dracula's projectiles, but at least he can use paper airplane and b,d,f though.

I think his f,f attack could waste less MP, I honestly don't see many uses to it, only in situations where I want to hit and backdash, but pies are better at this since they waste less MP, plus his f,f attack isn't that good with the range, maybe it could waste 150 MP, Serious Jonathan's f,f attack should still waste 180 though, it's the best generic whip user f,f attack on the game.

b,d,f could do more damage since in functions basicaly the same as sub weapons like Soma's flea men, but it's inferior in every way.

Also, I noticed that Jonathan's and Werewolf's perfect guard are opposistes, Jonathan's fills his MP bar, Werewolf's wastes it, Werewolf's should fill too since he has more MP problems.

And, about Persephone's and Maxim's sub weapons, it seems odd that the kunai and ground shuriken start to waste more MP the more shot upgrades they receive, it devalues their uses a bit, maybe that could stay with Maxim since his MP recovery is faster, but Persephone can have MP problems once in a while since her MP recovery is worse, sub weapons wasting more MP would only make this worse.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 11:41:48 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 01:53:52 PM »
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So I moved Master Skeleton to B+, I underrated how good his tools are, he's more or less on the same level as Persephone, maybe just a bit worse (Her triple daggers are what made me conclude she's better, Ground Shuriken could be another reason too, however, Master Skeleton has his own advantages over her, so she doesn't outclass him in every way).

Frog, I'll mess around with him more, he generaly has issues doing high damage safely, his qcf+A is his best attack to do damage but it can be risky to use it, he's also a bit of a MP waster, but that can probably be solved by using his normals more and turtling (He's really good at turtling because of how good his movement is, however, bosses like Death or Brauner don't really let you turtle too much without consequences).

I think the top 3 on the game would be: Charlotte > Loretta > Nathan.

Charlotte just basicaly has everything, although a bit slow with her tools, her normals strings are pretty solid, her zoning is strong, raging fire is just excellent up close tool, b,d,f attacks are really good invincible dash ins, specialy because she can choose to use between magic or physical, and control if she wants to go up or down with it, and she can heal, which although it's useless early on, her healing becomes really good at triple/quadruple shot.

Loretta is a damaging zoning monster, f,f attack, Icicle spike, and her up,qcf attack, which is the best projectile charge move because of it's damage and the ammount of I-frames it gives to her, her normal is really good, having flight with backdash is always a good thing, and her item crash and qcf attack  are really good against up close big bosses.

Nathan, he has all the generic whip user stuff minus flame whip, which is really good, his f,f attack only wastes 50 MP, his DSS mode can heal him when he hits the opponent with a whip, his DSS clone gives him a really good way to damage up close enemies, his non DSS crash does really high damage, and he throws sub weapons quite fast.

It's honestly debatable which one of those characters is the best one, they're really close to each other, I put Charlotte as the first one because her only weak point is that she's a bit slow, and some of her moves can have a kind of long recovery, but on the second one, if she can't use one tool, she can always use another, Loretta in very close second because her tools aren't as strong up close, but she generaly hits like a truck, Nathan is really good at up close range because of his clone, but the ammount of MP he'll have to waste to use any special move is what makes him weaker than them for me, plus his zoning isn't as strong, which is a big deal, other characters who possibly could take the spot for top 3 are Soma, Axe Armor, Chronicles Simon (And maybe CV4 Simon too, but I feel like Chronicles Simon's flame whip mode is what makes him better, while CV4 Simon's biggest advantage he has over Chronicles Simon is the 8-way whipping, but they both has axes which are just excellent anti airs), Marias (Probably with SotN Maria as the best one), and maybe Stella, Montano and Sonia.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2016, 05:36:13 PM »
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So, I've been messing around with Frog lately, thinking he could be kind of a hidden gem like Master Skeleton, and, he isn't, he does have solid enough damage and whatnot, but he needs to take bigger risks than the other characters, his zoning is crap, he's kind of a big MP waster, his anti airs suck, and in some cases he needs his item crash to do damage. He has his own advantages, which is what makes him not be worthless, but, he just isn't that strong, still viable, but at the moment, shouldn't be higher than B.

That aside, I moved Werewolf to A-, his biggest weak point are shitty anti airs and bad MP recovery, but, he can turtle well enough, and his melee game is really good, his qcf attack is crap though, only special input move you should use with him is f,f attack, and up,qcf attack for flight enemies, his b,d,f has some uses too, but wastes too much MP so it's more limited.

Guess this tier list is done for now, but maybe there's some strategy I missed with a specific character, which can make them go up. Updates may buff/nerf characters or bosses too, so that can change some things.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 01:09:00 AM »
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Made some changes for the list, removed Sakuya from S tier, she just doesn't feel as strong as the other characters in there, moved Shanoa and Albus up, since both of them have Igniz which becomes quite overpowered with upgrades, and they don't really have many noticeable matchups you can call bad.

Also, I decided to turn the A tier into S-, ever since the beginning the A tier characters were really close to S tier ones, while B tiers are pretty "far" from A, and just one small change/new strategy could easily move a character from the old A to S, while it may take more for a character in B to move too much, so, since the difference between A and S isn't that big, I decided to turn the A tier into S-, and A- into A, B and C tiers stay the same.

Also moved Persephone to A (Which is the equivalent to the old A-), she honestly starts out not really strong, but with shot upgrades she becomes pretty damaging, specialy when zoning with Triple Daggers (She easily destroys Albus with triple shot), and it doesn't waste much MP too, she's similar to Werewolf in the sense that she becomes stronger with MP upgrades instead of HP upgrades because it allows her to use more her good moves (While Tripple Dagger is really strong, she still needs more MP for other tools like Shurikens and the Kunais, also her f,f attack).

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2016, 02:05:03 PM »
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So, I've been thinking, I think I should write explanations about each character's moves, but, you guys decide which character I should write about, I'll write one by one, some characters may take longer to write about though, generaly because I'm less experienced with said character.

Offline VladCT

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2016, 02:34:42 PM »
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I guess you should try starting from the top tier ones and work your way down.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2016, 02:52:16 PM »
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I guess you should try starting from the top tier ones and work your way down.

Only if the characters chosen just happen to be from top to bottom.

I think it's more interesting for someone else to pick a character they want to know about and then I write about said character, if I had to choose I would probably write nothing anyway, lol.

Oh and, anyone can help with info about movesets too, sometimes I neglect specific moves, and that could put a character lower than they should.

Offline VladCT

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2016, 03:22:56 PM »
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I see.

Okay then, let's try Sonia first. I'd like to know what you think about a character I had a hand in designing.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2016, 12:09:39 AM »
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I see.

Okay then, let's try Sonia first. I'd like to know what you think about a character I had a hand in designing.

Done.

While messing around with her I found a glitch, her up,qcf attack doesn't go through shields at bigger distances, and the website says she has the bible sub weapon, and she doesn't.

For now the sub weapons are in the same section as the character, I'll change that later once enough info is gathered, mention the same sub weapons in a different section, but write down the differences for each in damage and how fast the character throws it, also extra info like height and whatever else that's important.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2016, 03:39:48 AM »
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I would also like to see what you think about the touhouvania cast. Might just find out I've been playing either wrong.


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2016, 04:01:27 AM »
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I would also like to see what you think about the touhouvania cast. Might just find out I've been playing either wrong.

One character at a time man, lol.

Offline VladCT

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2016, 04:07:15 AM »
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Just read up your analysis on Sonia, how do you think her Fire Soul (up+qcf) should be buffed, higher damage or faster charge (Serio also forgot to mention that the charge can be held for bigger range)?

Oh, and by the way you got a little mix-up there, the Crash is Magic Soul, Saint Soul's the projectile.

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2016, 08:37:46 AM »
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Quote
One character at a time man, lol.

Oh sorry lol. How about Reimu first?


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2016, 09:32:19 PM »
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Just read up your analysis on Sonia, how do you think her Fire Soul (up+qcf) should be buffed, higher damage or faster charge (Serio also forgot to mention that the charge can be held for bigger range)?

Well, invincible chargeable moves are as good as they generaly are because they put the charactet far from the boss, so it's high damaging and safe, other chargeable moves make you stay close to the boss, or the boss gets close while you use it, only way I see this becoming good, and all other chargeable moves which aren't invincible dash ins, is to have more I-frames, that way the character can get away from the boss safely after the move is done, the ammount of MP they waste could be toned down too, because most times the damage they do isn't really high to compensate all of that MP being wasted, though, Sonia's up,qcf already has good enough damage, but it should do the same damage at any range, and have extra I-frames.

Quote
Oh, and by the way you got a little mix-up there, the Crash is Magic Soul, Saint Soul's the projectile.

Thanks, corrected.

Oh sorry lol. How about Reimu first?

Done.

Also I decided to add more details on the last part of each character, to explain more of the character's pros and cons, both Sonia and Reimu have that, will also put it for future characters.

Edit: Added a section for Sakuya.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
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Made some changes on the list, moved Werewolf to S- tier, I kind of understimated how good his melee and f,f attack are, his up,qcf attack is also a pretty good anti air, and while you won't really use if for the fire attack, the fire can be useful to destroy projectiles, so you safely backdash away, also moved Reimu to S-, I kind of overstimated her Yin Yang orbs, they're still really strong, but the other characters have better stuff, they're also a bit nerfed when compared to previous versions, before she could control their bouncing, if you wanted the orbs to jump around less, you could use them while crouching, if you wanted them to jump more, use them in the air, now there's only the default version, which weakens the orbs on matchups like Werewolf or Cerberus.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2016, 09:29:01 PM »
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Update the list, moved Persephone up, moved Serious Jonathan down, added Grant.

Persephone is the single most powerful character at the moment, her Triple Daggers were always very good (I stupidly enough took a long time to notice that), but now that they're probably the best sub weapons in the game, low cost, high damage, and it poisons the opponent, and the more sub weapons you throw, the longer the poison status remain, with Persephone already having a good normal and solid projectile destruction, she doesn't have a single bad matchup, or even close to bad.

Now, the poison daggers can stay and still be balanced, I think increasing the ammount of MP they waste would be enough, something between 80 and 100, they would still be powerful, just not the sub weapon of pure destruction they are now.

Grant, he's pretty strong, hits pretty hard, but has probably the worst MP recovery in the game, he kind of makes up for it by doing high damage with the daggers and axes (Specialy the axes), the biggest problem he has is that his normal is as bad as Carrie's, has more range, but when he gets to use it (Which doesn't happen much), won't do as much damage, he's a character you should get more MP upgrades since his MP recovery is terrible, the biggest problem with him right now is the Medusa matchup. I'd say he's a bit weaker than generic whip users, they have more economical ways to do damage (Cross and Holy Water), plus better normals (Which includes whip spin) and MP recovery, Grant's advantage is that he destroys any flying boss and his zoning is far better, plus his b,d,f attack works like Master Skeleton's, which is really good.

Serious Jonathan, he has a stupid glitch where his MP constantly drains, which, very quickly, makes him lose all his MP, leaving him with only normals, other movement options, and item crashes, he's still playable, just, not worth playing lol.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:39:52 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Medlin

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2016, 12:16:52 AM »
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Ronald somehow looks pretty strong in current version. I had to give up Nightmare all boss run on Blackmore due to disappearance bug but so far only had problems with Skull Knight and Balore. Haven't tried it with lots of other characters though so it's hard to compare yet.

Offline FinnishFlame

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2016, 01:20:22 AM »
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By the way, have Ronald's new moves been slated to be added in the next version? He still seems to be lacking in the moves department.
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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2016, 02:29:05 AM »
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Ronald somehow looks pretty strong in current version. I had to give up Nightmare all boss run on Blackmore due to disappearance bug but so far only had problems with Skull Knight and Balore. Haven't tried it with lots of other characters though so it's hard to compare yet.

Ronald doesn't have a bad matchup against Skull Knight, it's actualy the only matchup where his ceiling cling matter since you can space yourself to use it when Skull Knight uses his beam, and throw hamburguers at him, when you super jump to avoid his attacks, you can also use the C version of the hamburguers to hit him with proper spacing, I doubt he has a bad matchup against Balore, he can just throw hamburguers at him, and lately I think it's possible to beat Balore without taking hits with everyone.

His problems are that he lacks proper tools for other situations, he has an anti air, but his zoning is position dependant, his damage output with his normals are crap, and his Fry Kids have the same-ish problem as Reimu's in the sense they suck against enemies who ove too much or aren't in the middle of the screen, he does have more damage potential with her though, but still, he is weak, but still viable for the most part, he's trash tier now since he can't kill Blackmore, and he doesn't deal with either Medusa or Albus well, specialy now that Medusa can spam Medusa heads more often, and unlike someone like Carrie, he doesn't have high damage to kill Medusa before she's too much of a threat, he also never dealth with either Olrox or Brauner that well, (Although they are weaker on this patch).

Basicaly, he has enough to be viable for the most part, it's just that everyone else has something which gives them more advantages (Better normals, better zoning, better movement, invincible dash ins, better damage, item crash, healing, etc, etc), although, his normal doing unique damage now is alright, but he's still weak, once the stupid glitch with Blackmore is solved and Medusa is toned down, maybe I could move him up, but at best to B- tier, the buffs he received are nice, but he falls behind most of the cast.

I won't change the list much for now, since I haven't gone too much in depth with some characters, and I kind of got sick of playing this patch (Having to quit the game everytime I face Balore is not fun), so I won't play with the characters further for now, although, both Hammer and Master Skeleton look like they could go up, not sure how much, but, Frog, definitely goes down, he received nothing but nerfs, nerfed HP (Which should've been only on VS), nerfed qcf attack, which used to waste 100MP, now it's 125MP, small stuff, but the damage is either 1/3 of what the fire version used to do or less, which makes the move completely worthless, complete turn around for being the alright move it was before (It looked overpowered, even destroyed Cerberus, but it was pretty limited, and just palled in comparison to the tools other characters have), urgh, honestly, he's just too weak and boring to be worth anyone's time now lol.

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 12:13:42 PM »
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ronald's not done yet. once all the sprites are complete and move ideas finalized i'll need some sort of compiled list with the moves and descriptions, so i don't have to search through the entire topic for what moves he has and how they evolved to their final forms, which could've happened 3-5 pages later or something.

i'll release the next patch soon, if there are no more immediate bugs. as a version up, not just a partial 18a. despite being a few days i already got nearly 2 pages full of bugfixes. lol.
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Offline FinnishFlame

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 01:06:32 PM »
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Alright. The moves are done, with the exception of the item crash, which could use the normal sprites. I believe the movelist can be find on Lukmendes' list.
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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 01:11:42 PM »
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ronald's not done yet. once all the sprites are complete and move ideas finalized i'll need some sort of compiled list with the moves and descriptions, so i don't have to search through the entire topic for what moves he has and how they evolved to their final forms, which could've happened 3-5 pages later or something.

That's one of the reasons why I made this thread mang:

http://serio.piiym.net/cvbla/board/index.php?topic=1445.0

I also added Killer Ronald there.

Alright. The moves are done, with the exception of the item crash, which could use the normal sprites. I believe the movelist can be find on Lukmendes' list.

But would it be possible to make a giant sparkle for the item crash with his current sprites?

Offline FinnishFlame

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2016, 10:10:45 PM »
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I guess the sprite could be made by agglomerating some normal sprites into a cluster, or perhaps enlarging the sprite.

If that doesn't work, I guess a new sprite could be made.
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Re: Tier list
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2016, 11:39:03 PM »
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Ronald doesn't have a bad matchup against Skull Knight, it's actualy the only matchup where his ceiling cling matter since you can space yourself to use it when Skull Knight uses his beam, and throw hamburguers at him, when you super jump to avoid his attacks, you can also use the C version of the hamburguers to hit him with proper spacing
I tried a lot, but still fail badly to hit him with hamburgers while cling or jump. Could you please make screenshots or video how to do it properly?
Against Balore the problem was that you need to save some mp before phase 2.

Now when Ronald can kill Blackmore again I finally completed all boss NM with him. The biggest problem is Richter ofc. Another dangerous boss I forgot to mention last time is LD due to the way he was buffed. There are also a few bosses who could be harder if they weren't bugged.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2016, 12:11:38 AM »
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I tried a lot, but still fail badly to hit him with hamburgers while cling or jump. Could you please make screenshots or video how to do it properly?

I can't make videos (I only use free softwares, which expire after a while lol), but here's a pic:



Now, to do that, when he uses the beam, you should either use his jumps or a backdash to position yourself before using the ceiling cling, being in a low position helps because it means you can be closer to Skull Knight, which makes it better to hit him, so a single jump then ceiling cling works better, since ti leaves Ronald pretty low, the distance itself will come to you naturaly, the thing you need to get used first is creating the distance, and reacting to when he starts his beam, super jumps can help to put you farther away from him, but use a double jump when you're in the right position, because Ronald's mediocre ceiling cling means he can't use it as freely from a super jump.

Quote
Against Balore the problem was that you need to save some mp before phase 2.

Which is not a problem at all, you can just keep using normals until phase 2, and/or use hamburguers once in a while.

Anyway, small updates on the list, Persephone down to S (Poison daggers are still really good, she also got other buffs like being able to string her A normal into special input moves, and she now can throw her Kunai and Shuriken sub weapons more when she gets shot upgrades), Serious Jonathan to S-, Master Skeleton to A, Ronald to C+, Frog gets his own mediocre tier.

I honestly was going to put Grant in A before the 0.6.19 patch came out, he just didn't stand out much to be in S- in that patch, and I overrated him a bit too much.

I still haven't beaten the game with Ronald, Hammer and Master Skeleton, but honestly, the buffs they received, it's significant for something, Ronald's gives him a decent normal with consistent damage, and Master Skeleton, just the buffed MP recovery by itself makes him go to A, buffed cross and up,qcf attack can potentialy make him go even higher, but I'm putting him in A for now, Hammer to A-, but I'm not sure how much a buffed qcf attack matters to him yet, at least it's going to give him a more consistent projectile destroyer, which can help against Medusa, so, I'm purposedly leaving those 3 in a lower position than I think they could be just to be safe, Master Skeleton is potentialy S-, Hammer potentialy A, Ronald potentialy B, maybe even B+, I'll test them out more later.

Edit: Oh right, updated Reimu's character analysis, just wrote about the buffs on her f,f attack and her b,d,f attack.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 01:11:25 AM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2016, 02:19:49 AM »
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Sometimes I wonder how I can miss specific details.

I always thought Hammer had a bad matchup against Medusa, didn't look like he had anything to deal with her Medusa heads attack reliably, so, like Carrie, he needs to kill her before she becomes too threatening.

Then I remembered he has the up,qcf attack.

All you have to do, is jump, and use the up,qcf attack to avoid her Medusa Heads attack, while also damaging her, that's it, that simple, the matchup was never bad (Honestly feeling like an idiot for never figuring this out). Now it's even worse for her, even since the bosses started to stop attacking when the character has I-frames, well, now he can use it almost everytime, she used the beam attack? Up,qcf attack, sword dash is? up,qcf attack, Medusa Heads? Up,qcf attack, and if you use only this attack, you can easily kill her without having to worry about MP as long as you hit most times, only the big beam and and the sword stab  are exceptions, but against the big beam you can use the item crash to attack her at least.

With this, very simple strategy, he has the second best matchup against Medusa on the entire game, first one is Persephone, since Poison daggers are very good at damaging her, and Persephone can use her up,qcf attack to absorb the Medusa Heads, making the battle be pretty much impossible for Medusa to win as long as you play well enough, Hammer has the advantage of doing more damage most times though.

Well, I'll admit this was eye opener, and Hammer can probably improve in more matchups if I can find more ways to use his up,qcf attack, the most obvious cases would be Great Minotaur, when he uses the axe boomerang or the gas attack (Though I get the feeling those one won't work), and against Skull Knight when he uses the beam attack, can probably be used against Cyclops to damage him and avoid his hammer attacks too.

Because of that, I moved Hammer to A tier, Medusa matchup and dealing with other projectiles were the things holding him back, but with him being able to easily crush Medusa, and having no real problem with other matchups, he went higher, just isn't even higher because other characters just hit harder.

By the way guys, about the balance, you guys think it's okay for the weakest character to be A tier? Or should everyone be around S? I mean, this kind of game being so balanced means that there's less chance of un-winnable matchups from happening, which means a boss who "should" be strong like Galamoth can be tough without much worries, but then again, A tier as the weakest is fine, I can always write up suggestion lists to see what can possibly be done to beef up a character so they can all go to S-/S, while not losing their core playstyle. So, what do you guys think?

Offline VladCT

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2016, 03:02:27 AM »
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I say go ahead. A balanced roster should by definition mean that everyone is as equally viable as possible.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2016, 11:24:36 AM »
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Obviously putting them all nearly as viable as possible would be very difficult, but I don't see why not. It will make every character more enjoyable to play, seeing that they have about the same viability.


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Re: Tier list
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2016, 12:20:13 AM »
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I think it's ok if some characters will be in A in Arcade mode, but they should be stronger than others in pvp then.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2016, 01:50:46 AM »
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Obviously putting them all nearly as viable as possible would be very difficult, but I don't see why not. It will make every character more enjoyable to play, seeing that they have about the same viability.

Not as hard as you might think, at the very basic level, what you need to beat a boss is damage and consistency at hitting the boss (Either by having the proper range or not wasting much MP), also ways to destroy projectiles, it's no coincidence that lower tiered characters usualy lack one or the other, so in some cases, just buffing the damage would be fine, characters like Ronald for example, he'd need more than damage to become better.

Well, for starters, I'll make a small list of moves that just suck now:

Hammer: His fire grenade, the only thing it was useful before was to destroy projectiles, and even at that it wasn't really good, with the buff his qcf attack received, well, it's just bad now. An idea I have for it, is for shot upgrades work like it buffs Fulgur, by giving it extra hits, and it could also do high damage by default, like, hit twice by doing 40 damage per hit, then each shot upgrade gives an extra hit, with this kind of advantage, shot upgrades shouldn't make him throw more than one.

His normal could receive a damage buff, very few reasons to use it when the handgun is faster and does only slightly less damage.

b,d,f attack could receive the same treatment as Duke Nukem's, to give a reason to use it over the Smart Bombs as an anti air, or use it in the ground over the now much safer qcf attack.

Mines could just waste less MP, against bosses at least, the MP cost is what makes it not worth to use over the grenades.

Jokenathan: This one also applies to Werewolf, but I don't think they should be petrified when blocking, there's very few uses for blocking in this game, so taking out one of the few good ones (Against Medusa), is just weird.

His b,d,f attack just needs a buff, the damage is pretty low when you stay still with it, which is just odd because of how vulnerable Jokenathan is with it activated, and when the wrecking ball is bouncing around, it still doesn't really hit hard, maybe to make the ball be more different from other moves which bounce around (Like Reimu's Yin Yang orbs), it could disapear faster, that would help to make it have more consistent damage, and when the ball

Frog, besides making his qcf attack useful again, he could also get a buff for his b,d,f attack, waste less MP like Death's, those buffs won't make him go S- tier though, but it'd be something at least.

If Frog is supposed to keep the HP he has now, then he really would need to hit harder, at everything, except the item crash and maybe b,d,f attack, more so against bosses though.

I think it's ok if some characters will be in A in Arcade mode, but they should be stronger than others in pvp then.

Well, problem is balancing VS to begin with, I have no idea how the meta game would be with it, after all, what would become more important? Combos? Then Montano would be pretty strong, or maybe it'd be movement? Then SotN Maria, Frog, Maxim, Sakuya and some others would be up there, and other things like how important would invincible moves be (They generaly make you dash into the opponent's direction, but they'd be far less useful if zoning/keep away is too strong), how good healing would be, how good zoning/keep away would be, character specific combos (Mostly against the really different characters though, like Death, Carrie, RoB Maria, 8-bit Simon and Axe Armor), matchup specific utility for moves, stage specific utility for moves, and so on, it's already hard enough to balance a fighter, it's even harder when you don't really know what is supposed to be good on it, and adding vastly different stages into the mix only makes this shit chaotic.

I also don't think that just because a character sucks on arcade they should be good on VS, why make a character be more boring in one and fun in the other when you can try to make the character fun in both?

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2016, 05:33:00 PM »
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What do you think about whether Julius or Simon really need their moveset to be filled up (or even completed)?


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2016, 05:56:54 PM »
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What do you think about whether Julius or Simon really need their moveset to be filled up (or even completed)?

I made a post about this on the "need move ideas for characters who miss them" thread months ago, but I'll post here too.

Simon could have CV2 Laurels, the one that made him invincible, could be activated automaticaly and stay activated for around 5 seconds, could be an up,qcf attack

Medlin suggested for a silver dagger to be added too, could be a qcf input, could be a fast damaging zoning tool, but wastes more MP than a dagger, so it'd be better to use it on situations where you have more time to recover MP, he also suggested for it to track, which, though I'm not sure if it should, it sounds interesting even though Nathan already has it, but then again, months ago I didn't consider that Simon would be able to use this without his power up mode, so it'd be more usable than Nathan's tracking dagger, but, I don't think this move should be backdash or jump cancelable.

b,d,f, I suggested for it to be a stop watch, but one that actualy stops time, to separate it well from the Laurels, it could be a chargeable move and be activated for like, 15 seconds, but waste a lot of MP, like 700 or so.

Also, to further separate the Simons, I think 8-bit Simon should be the only one with healing Laurels once he gets a complete moveset, Chronicles Simon already has his flame whip mode, which turns him into a power house, and CV4 Simon is the fastest whip user with 8way whip attacks, so those two are already really strong, and being able to heal is a bit overkill, maybe CV4 Simon's Y button could be replaces so he can swing on the celings (upwards whip+Y)

For Julius, the first thing that you can notice is that he doesn't have a dagger, so he's the only generic whip user who can't zone, so instead of him receiving the dagger back, he could have a move where he punches the ground and it is covered by blue energy (The entire ground I mean) with his qcf input, and using it in the air could make him fall faster to hit the ground, and for a b,d,f move, maybe a damaging invincible dash in, I'm not really sure about the last one though, just an idea I had because I couldn't think of anything better, but the qcf input for him could be pretty good and it'd cover the big hole he has on his lack of zoning.

So for Simon, it'd be simple to add those moves since he'd just use things that are already in the game, Julius would be a more complicated one since he'd need new sprites.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2016, 02:31:24 AM »
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So I edited the list a bit, decided to separate Charlotte and Loretta in a S+ tier, Master Skeleton on S-

I never had any doubts they are stronger than everyone else, and honestly, they are significantly stronger to have a higher tier, should've done this before.

Master Skeleton in S- because, well, his tools are pretty good, cross is the sub weapon you'll use the most, pretty overpowered actualy lol, should be toned down so others can be more usable, maybe it should maintain only the damage upgrade and not be able to throw more, but could get one  or two more points in damage upgrade to compensate, but wouldn't be just a better version of the Belmont Cross, besides that, he has solid damage with his other weapons and tools.

I honestly think his whip could do dark type of damage, weird for an evil character to be doing holy damage.

Now, as for the game's balance, whoever is buffed or added, should not be that much stronger than Charlotte or Loretta, those two are already pretty overpowered, though not enough to just derp around the game, we already had characters stronger than them, Sakuya who once got damage upgrades with her knifes with shot upgrades, making her hit too hard against everything, Reimu who had something similar, Persephone whose poison daggers wasted only 30MP at some point, Simon who had a glitch where he'd never lose hearts, and pre patch Simon and Yoko's heal which made them pretty much immortal, those characters were pure braindead bullshit, and I don't think any character should have this kind of thing again, of course, it can happen when a character is added, but they can be patched later, no one should stay game breaking overpowered, and I mean everyone with this, including long awaited characters like player Dracula or whatever, if other characters just happens to be strong around Charlotte's and Loretta's level, then I'll probably not have a problem with them there (It depends on why they're there, I'll definitely ask for nerfs in case a character is top tier with only one move like Sakuya and Persephone were at some point, though I'll also ask for other tools to be buffed)

Of course, I also want the weaker characters to be buffed, I think it'd be better for even the weakest character in the game to be in S-, that would also make it better to put a hard boss in the game, since all characters will be solid enough to beat them.

Post Merge: October 18, 2016, 02:30:37 AM
So, since I'm kind of back in the game again, I've been thinking about the generic whip users.

One thing that I never liked about them is how all of them can be played in the same-ish way, because, basicaly, what the generic whip users are about, are the whip normal, whip spin, dagger, holy water, axe, and holy cross, and that is the problem with them, they have all of those other moves, but most of them either suck or are not good enough to be worth using over those (There are some situations where they're better choices though).

So, the idea I have is, instead of having the sub weapons be the main thing while the special inputs are not that good, it could be the opposite, that would help to separate them, for the sub weapon nerfs, they could do less damage, all of them, the shot upgrades could still be there, just not be good enough to make them too good to use over the special inputs in nearly every situation (Basicaly how characters like Duke Nukem and Sakuya work), so here's how I think it could work:

Serious Jonathan: He's honestly already pretty strong with most of his special inputs, up,qcf attack could do more damage, it being backdash cancelable would be good too.

Julus: He doesn't have any other offensive move special attack besides f,f attack, so, if his sub weapons were to be nerfed as well, f,f attack could do more damage, though his sub weapon nerfs should be lesser.

Juste: The only good special inputs he has are f,f+A and both up,qcf attacks, so buff everything else, f,f+C could slow down once it hits something and do more damage, also be backdash cancelable (Makes no sense his f,f+A, a zoning tool, is backdash cancelable, while the f,f+C, an up close tool, isn't), qcf+A, more damage, also maybe it could work like Stella's up,qcf attack and be able to throw more once you get more sht upgrades, qcf+C, it should hit harder than up,qcf+C if you can make it hit when it's going upwards and downwards, otherwise it's useless, b,d,f attacks, well, I guess the buff I asked on the General Suggestions thread would work, to make them waste less MP (250 or less).

Nathan: He's already a power house thanks to his up,qcf attack and Y button, only b,d,f could have some buffs, could just get some extra I-frames on both versions of the move so he can use it safely, and qcf shouldn't be a conveniently hidden semi-Richter-qcf attack, maybe instead of him being pushed back when the first kick hits, he could stay where he is to hit with the second kick, although, he still will be pretty close to Richter, so since he has superior MP recovery, he could start to hit less hard for him to have to rely more on up,qcf attack or Y button, maybe his MP recovery could become a bit better so he can use them more often.

Richters/Hanz: Increase the damage of their qcf attack, it already has less range than his f,f attack and isn't cancelable (though it has fast recovery), both Richter's and Hanz' b,d,f could do significantly more damage (Plus having some extra I-frames at the end of the animation).

Simons: Like Julius, they don't have much else offensively, so if their sub weapons were to be nerfed, should be less than the others, 8-bit Simon shouldn't get any nerfs though, he's already the weakest.

Sonia: More damage on up,qcf attack, extra I-frames at the end of it, all other moves are good.

Those changes in playstyles won't separate the generic whip users from each other completely, but as long as you have to actualy use other moves to have the characters at their full potential, it'll be good enough, plus, it makes a character like John to not be a whatever addition when considering his playstyle, since he'll have more diferent stuff to use than sub weapons, also opens the door for other whip users to be added as well if they can have diferent enough special inputs, meaning poor Christopher wouldn't be a bad choice (Though him having a shield like VladCT suggested was already a good enough start to separate him).

Also, sub weapons shouldn't be nerfed to the point of uselessness, I don't want them to be useless, I just think they shouldn't be the main thing they have.

Hugh, Carrie and Alucard could also have some toning down on the sub weapons, ALucard is the only one needing buffs in other moves though, like up,qcf+C and f,f+A could be buffed, up,qcf+C could do more damage, f,f+A, it could have extra I-frames near the end, bosses leaving hitboxes in the direction Alucard is going to be is a serious problem with this move, and maybe during his b,d,f, he could already transform into the wolf so he can start running sooner, Hugh's b,d,f really needs to hit harder since it has longer charge time and wastes more MP than others (It could waste less MP a bit, to keep it at 250, but definitely needs more damage to compensate for slower charge).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 02:49:15 AM by Lukmendes »

Offline UBerserker

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2016, 06:20:21 PM »
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So I find regular Simon underwhelming for Tier S. Great damage for sure but he lacks utility and he's a complete one-trick pony - as in there's just one strategy that works when playing him and you can't adapt against certain enemies (flying ones for the most part).
Compare that to Shanoa who seems to be good at just about anything, she's good in every situation. I hardly played Shanoa at all but recently I randomly chose her and went ballistic for a crapload of Survival mode fights. I think she deserves S+ at least. Scales like crap late game I suppose because her HP sucks but still.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2016, 10:03:40 PM »
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So I find regular Simon underwhelming for Tier S. Great damage for sure but he lacks utility and he's a complete one-trick pony - as in there's just one strategy that works when playing him and you can't adapt against certain enemies (flying ones for the most part).

Simon is similar to one thing to Kazuya from Tekken, as in he's boring but effective, he can't vary much because he only has generic whip user stuff, but that's all he needs, the flame whip mode is a really good power up, and once you start to use less sub weapons and try to hit the opponents more with the whip, that's when it starts to shine, like against Ciclops or Brauner, and he can heal, those are the reasons why he's at S tier, and why Chronicles Simon is the best one, I guess arguably CV4 Simon wouldn't be there, but, again, basic whip user stuff plus healing.

He also doesn't have issues against any flight boss, axe is there for a reason, anyone with it is good to go against flight boss, well, except Carmilla in case the characters doesn't have the longer ranged C axe, which all Simons have.

Quote
Compare that to Shanoa who seems to be good at just about anything, she's good in every situation. I hardly played Shanoa at all but recently I randomly chose her and went ballistic for a crapload of Survival mode fights. I think she deserves S+ at least. Scales like crap late game I suppose because her HP sucks but still.

Shanoa is really good, her lower than usual HP is not a problem, I actualy tend to forget about it when playing as her, and I don't even upgrade HP, however, she's not S+, Charlotte and Loretta are on a different level, her advantages are her very fast MP heal, very good set of sub weapons, fast user of sub weapons, f,f attack is very good, glyphs swords are good, Cerberus' stuff are alright (Only really useable against Medusa and Great Armor, anyone else is kinda pushing it because f,f attack covers it), and even b,d,f has it's uses, the only weak point she has is that she's a big MP waster with most of her stuff that aren't Igniz, her anti airs are sub par when compared to others too. She gets better in late game because Igniz becomes both more abuseable and damaging, specialy if you manage to get a quadruple shot, those things makes her be a very strong character and definitely at the top of the S tier, but she's not the best nor the only one there.

Nathan, Soma, Persephone, Axe Armor, SotN Maria, those are the characters who are at the top of S tier alongside Shanoa, and the closest characters to the S+, like her they have very high damage, though they're slightly better at it.

Nathan has the typical whip user stuff minus a generic f,f attack, he gets an invincible dash in instead, DSS mode is good for damage and healing, clone is even better for damage but it's better to avoid using special inputs with it, throws sub weapons noticeably fast, and his non DSS item crash is just excellent, specialy against flight bosses.

Soma's Warg can be used pretty oftern and it does high damage, his qcf+C and Erinys are very solid anti airs, he also has a pretty solid chargeable invincible dash in, plus he gets more MP per boss killed, and when using normals, if he has Cagnazzo activated, he does a lot of damage, really good against Brauner and Ciclops.

Persephone has a pretty good normal with her A, fast and big range, pretty solid set of sub weapons, specialy tripple daggers, which are the most damaging projectile in the game, ground shuriken are excellent for up close uses, kunai does pretty good damage and so does shuriken, plus it goes through objects, up,qcf attack is pretty good to absorb projectiles and get HP back (It makes the matchup against Medusa impossible to lose), really big range with her invincible dash in, but her MP recovery isn't that fast, her qcf attack isn't that good because the damage it does is not worth the MP cost, same for her b,d,f attack, and she doesn't have any real anti air, she's up there because of the solid normals, and the damage her sub weapons do.

Axe Armor's normal has short range but it's pretty fast, his axe and axe boomerang are power houses, and his item crash is excellent, his f,f attack and up,qcf attacks are pretty good too, plus he has that very high deffense against physical attacks, what he lacks are proper zoning tools, as the best options he has is C axes, but you can make them work.

SotN Maria has very good normals, big range, good damage, very fast recovery, very good sub weapons, which are good at zoning and anti airs, godly movement with the air dashes and her f,f attack invincible dash in, fast MP recovery her qcf attack is probably a weaker version of Charlotte's raging fire, up,qcf attack is a decent way to heal and do damage, b,d,f attack is good to heal and become invincible for a bit, her item crashes, two of them are sub par, but the black tortoise one is good to recover HP against more stationary bosses and Azure Dragon's is basicaly an unpatched hydro storm, she has no real weak points, she is a bit less damaging than the others though.

Basicaly we have those other 5 excellent characters who are also at the top of S tier, Soma, Nathan and SotN Maria are arguably better than Shanoa, but they're very close so it's hard to reach a conclusion, she is very strong, just not enough to reach S+, but again, she's close to it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 10:11:02 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2017, 11:02:40 AM »
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So do you plan to continue reviewing characters? Preferably in an organized format, something like:

Character Name

Overview

Review of attacks

Review of defenses

Quirks

Summary

Or anything similar.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2017, 02:20:34 PM »
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So do you plan to continue reviewing characters? Preferably in an organized format, something like:

Character Name

Overview

Review of attacks

Review of defenses

Quirks

Summary

Or anything similar.

That's... Pretty much the format I already use, lol.

And I only write if someone requests for a character, preferably one at a time, though if I had to write now it'd take longer since I haven't played the game in a while, so I'd have to play it for a while to make sure I don't forget anything.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2017, 02:58:25 AM »
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That's... Pretty much the format I already use, lol.

And I only write if someone requests for a character, preferably one at a time, though if I had to write now it'd take longer since I haven't played the game in a while, so I'd have to play it for a while to make sure I don't forget anything.

Yeah, I meant that format, but more well seperated. Let me just rewrite one of your reviews to show what I mean.

SONIA BELMONT

Overview:

Sonia is a typical whip user with a few tricks up her sleeve. These tricks put her ahead in several situations, and make her more interesting to play.

Normals:

A: Her whip is one of the most damaging whip attacks when compared to the other whip users, and the range is a bit longer than some (Simons, Nathan, Richters/Hanz), however, it's also the slowest, it's one of the slowest normals in the game, a bit slower than even attacks like Soma's Claimh Solais, it does hit a bit earlier at up close range though, the whip spin works like any other, though it can be a bit harder to use it because her whip is slower.

C: The sword normal is also slow, but it's a bit faster than the whip, the situations where you want to use it over the whip are against up close bosses like Brauner or Cyclops, do something like, standing C, crouching C, jump, standing C, crouching C... it's both faster and more damaging than using the whip, theoricaly it's also better against flight bosses, because of it's higher hitbox, but that's not really the case because flight bosses move around a lot, and it takes some time for Sonia to get close, jump and use it, while she can attack sooner with the whip, it's better against Draculina and Paranoia though.

f,f attack: This move gives Sonia the best zoning between whip users, and in general it's solid too, the hitbox is large, so it's good to destroy projectiles coming at your direction, against Medusa for example, you can use it to destroy the flying medusa heads to destroy them and damage Medusa, it's also backdash cancelable once the whip is fully stretched, so it's also very good as an up close tool.

qcf attack: It looks useless at first, but this move is good, what it does is either destroy or deflect the projectile, that even works with Dario and Rusalka, both their fire wave and wave splash attack can be deflected, and will also damage them, but this move also has the advantage of having some invincibility frames after it's over, so she can use it over and over and stay invincible for as long as you have MP and/or you can do the inputs properly, you will be doing crap damage though, so use it in tight situations, like if Rusalka uses her big wave attack and you destroy the rocks, or everytime Brauner uses the Blood Art technique attack.

up,qcf attack: This move sucks, the damage isn't that impressive, and you need to be very close to the opponent to do high damage, and even so, not that impressive, biggest advantage it has is the big area of effect, and that makes it effective to destroy Brauner's Blood Art technique, so it's an easier choice than doing many qcf attacks.

b,d,f attack: Her healing move, it's different from the rest because instead of making her stand still, she can move during it while it heals her for a while, the longer you charge, the more she's healed, however, if she's hit, the healing will be interrupted, so you need to carefuly use it, on a situation she's safe long enough to heal herself a lot, avoid to use it against Albus or Death, as they can interrupt you.

Item Crashes:

Thousand Blades: It's better to use it on bosses like Rusalka, Albus, Richter or Great Werewolf, when they're far and can't put pressure, with it's fast recovery, the invincibility frames which stay activated for a bit after she's done with the move, she can be pretty safe when using it.

Hydro Storm: It's a multi hit full screen move, the damage is the lowest of the item crashes, usualy pretty good item crash, but it's useless with Sonia.

Grand Cross: Her most damaging item crash, it's good against bosses who like to stay close to the character, it has the highest damage.

Axe: What it does is keep damaging the boss in a specific spot in the air, which makes it be usable only against flight bosses, but it's damage is inferior to Grand Cross, so it's useless.

Stop Watch: It slows down time for about 15 seconds, sounds pretty broken, but it has it's limits, bosses who have ways to just keep moving around while invincible will just waste your time, and situations where you want the boss being faster will screw you up, like against Death's giant skulls, or Cyclops hammer attacks, it's basicaly bad against bosses who can waste time and being invincible, or against bosses who have attacks which lasting longer is bad, don't use it against Zephyr, he'll reverse it.

Magic Soul: Full screen single hit item crash, it's pretty fast so she won't be taking much risks with it, it's also excellent to destroy projectiles, specialy Orlok's, use this instead of Hydro Storm because of the higher damage, and being a single hit is better.

Sub weapons:

Dagger: The dagger does alright damage and has low MP cost, it's most whip users only zoning tool, but Sonia also has her f,f attack, the dagger is faster and can be jump cancelable though, so it still has it's own uses.

Golden Dagger: It hits multiple times and goes through everything, so if you don't have enough shot upgrades, you may have to wait longer to use it, currently only useful against Dracula's and Great Werewolf's wolves, in other situations, the cross is better.

Holy Water: It's a multi hit up close move, the A version's damage and range are pretty good, and it's fast enough to do enough hits even against bosses with a somewhat fast recovery, using it in the air makes the A version go further, which helps a lot in a matchup like Great Armor or Skull Knight, C version is only good against Balore and Dracula, it's also ironicaly the most damaging sub weapon to use against Richter.

Cross: Another multi hit up close move, the cross wastes more MP than holy water, but it gets both damage increase and you can throw more of them per shot upgrade, but it has the disadvantage of moving too much and it's multi hits being a bit slower, so it's bad in some situations where holy water is good, the A version is a bit less damaging but it doesn't need to hit as much to do high damage, so it's better against smaller bosses or bosses who move a lot, C version is better against bigger and slower bosses.

Axe: Used for anti air, it can hit flight opponents twice, first hit when it's still going up, second hit when it's going down, that makes the axe a very powerful anti air, it's MP cost is pretty low too, the A version does less damage and wastes less MP, the C version has a bigger interval between hits, does more damage and wastes less MP, so it's for example, harder to get the two hits against Draculina, and it's probably impossible against Dracula, since Sonia has fast MP recovery, generaly using the C version is better.

Stop Watch: It has the same issues that the item crash version has, plus it being activated for less time, and wasting a lot of MP, though the activation is faster, and it can be alright to finish off a boss.

Y Button:
 
Burning mode's best perks are the buff it gives to her b,d,f attack and her f,f attack, first one becomes even better at healing, second one gets a bigger hitbox and does more damage, it also increases the damage of her normals, and she can shoot a fireball out of her whip, but the fireball isn't that good by itself, the damage is pretty low, and you need to have burning mode activated to use it, it's better to hit with it and the whip for more damage, Burning Mode also allows you to use the Saint Soul Item crash.

Movement:

Sonia's movement is average, her running speed is good, super jump is average, she also has a crouch-walk like CV4 Simon, but it's really slow, only really useful against Remilia since she's the only boss in the game who requires not moving much in certain situations.

Summary:

Solid S tier character. All of the good generic whip users stuff, dagger, axe, cross, holy water, whip normal, whip spin, the item crashes, including her own, those already help her to deal with a lot of matchups, her slide gives her a very good ground movement, b,d,f attack gives her an unique way of healing that can make her be pretty much impossible to be killed in some matchups, f,f attack is a very solid zoning tool, qcf is pretty good on the few matchups it's good.

Perhaps with a few images and such too. Though that would be better suited for another thread I think.

I would like to have all the characters reviewed well, but I'm sure that will take a lot of time.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Tier list
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2017, 03:47:19 AM »
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Yeah, I meant that format, but more well seperated. Let me just rewrite one of your reviews to show what I mean.

SONIA BELMONT

Overview:

Sonia is a typical whip user with a few tricks up her sleeve. These tricks put her ahead in several situations, and make her more interesting to play.

If I were to write an overview I'd copy Mizuumi wiki's "Primary objective" when talking about the character (Example: http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/Vampire_Savior/Q-Bee), which is basicaly just write what the hell the characters wants to use when attacking, which Sonia would be, generic whip user stuff, sword against up close bosses, f,f attack for higher damaging zoning and destroying projectiles, healing if you're dying and the boss allows it (As in, he's slow or can't attack for a bit), burning mode to buff f,f attack, healing and magic soul, qcf attack to reflect projectiles (Dario, Dogether, Rusalka, Orlok)

I should also write a different section for generic whip user stuff, and just list the difference for each one, otherwise I'd keep writing basicaly the same thing over and over.

Quote
Perhaps with a few images and such too. Though that would be better suited for another thread I think.

No need, what I'm doing here is just describing what works, and how and why they work (Or not), so it's more about learning about the moves themselves than seeing how they look.

Quote
I would like to have all the characters reviewed well, but I'm sure that will take a lot of time.

Can take at the very least 2 hours to write a single character I think, and that was when I had the game's info fresh on my mind, nowadays it'd take longer until I got the hang of the game again.

Theoricaly I could write a character per day and be done with it in little more than a month, but, fuck no, I ain't doing that much lol.