December 11, 2017, 11:22:45 AM

Author Topic: Tier list  (Read 4655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
0
Made some changes on the list, moved Werewolf to S- tier, I kind of understimated how good his melee and f,f attack are, his up,qcf attack is also a pretty good anti air, and while you won't really use if for the fire attack, the fire can be useful to destroy projectiles, so you safely backdash away, also moved Reimu to S-, I kind of overstimated her Yin Yang orbs, they're still really strong, but the other characters have better stuff, they're also a bit nerfed when compared to previous versions, before she could control their bouncing, if you wanted the orbs to jump around less, you could use them while crouching, if you wanted them to jump more, use them in the air, now there's only the default version, which weakens the orbs on matchups like Werewolf or Cerberus.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2016, 09:29:01 PM »
0
Update the list, moved Persephone up, moved Serious Jonathan down, added Grant.

Persephone is the single most powerful character at the moment, her Triple Daggers were always very good (I stupidly enough took a long time to notice that), but now that they're probably the best sub weapons in the game, low cost, high damage, and it poisons the opponent, and the more sub weapons you throw, the longer the poison status remain, with Persephone already having a good normal and solid projectile destruction, she doesn't have a single bad matchup, or even close to bad.

Now, the poison daggers can stay and still be balanced, I think increasing the ammount of MP they waste would be enough, something between 80 and 100, they would still be powerful, just not the sub weapon of pure destruction they are now.

Grant, he's pretty strong, hits pretty hard, but has probably the worst MP recovery in the game, he kind of makes up for it by doing high damage with the daggers and axes (Specialy the axes), the biggest problem he has is that his normal is as bad as Carrie's, has more range, but when he gets to use it (Which doesn't happen much), won't do as much damage, he's a character you should get more MP upgrades since his MP recovery is terrible, the biggest problem with him right now is the Medusa matchup. I'd say he's a bit weaker than generic whip users, they have more economical ways to do damage (Cross and Holy Water), plus better normals (Which includes whip spin) and MP recovery, Grant's advantage is that he destroys any flying boss and his zoning is far better, plus his b,d,f attack works like Master Skeleton's, which is really good.

Serious Jonathan, he has a stupid glitch where his MP constantly drains, which, very quickly, makes him lose all his MP, leaving him with only normals, other movement options, and item crashes, he's still playable, just, not worth playing lol.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:39:52 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Medlin

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: 0
Re: Tier list
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2016, 12:16:52 AM »
0
Ronald somehow looks pretty strong in current version. I had to give up Nightmare all boss run on Blackmore due to disappearance bug but so far only had problems with Skull Knight and Balore. Haven't tried it with lots of other characters though so it's hard to compare yet.

Offline FinnishFlame

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 660
  • Oikeutettu Satunnaisuuden
  • Respect: +6
Re: Tier list
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2016, 01:20:22 AM »
0
By the way, have Ronald's new moves been slated to be added in the next version? He still seems to be lacking in the moves department.
"Always Alert." "Not As Alert As I Once Was."

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2016, 02:29:05 AM »
0
Ronald somehow looks pretty strong in current version. I had to give up Nightmare all boss run on Blackmore due to disappearance bug but so far only had problems with Skull Knight and Balore. Haven't tried it with lots of other characters though so it's hard to compare yet.

Ronald doesn't have a bad matchup against Skull Knight, it's actualy the only matchup where his ceiling cling matter since you can space yourself to use it when Skull Knight uses his beam, and throw hamburguers at him, when you super jump to avoid his attacks, you can also use the C version of the hamburguers to hit him with proper spacing, I doubt he has a bad matchup against Balore, he can just throw hamburguers at him, and lately I think it's possible to beat Balore without taking hits with everyone.

His problems are that he lacks proper tools for other situations, he has an anti air, but his zoning is position dependant, his damage output with his normals are crap, and his Fry Kids have the same-ish problem as Reimu's in the sense they suck against enemies who ove too much or aren't in the middle of the screen, he does have more damage potential with her though, but still, he is weak, but still viable for the most part, he's trash tier now since he can't kill Blackmore, and he doesn't deal with either Medusa or Albus well, specialy now that Medusa can spam Medusa heads more often, and unlike someone like Carrie, he doesn't have high damage to kill Medusa before she's too much of a threat, he also never dealth with either Olrox or Brauner that well, (Although they are weaker on this patch).

Basicaly, he has enough to be viable for the most part, it's just that everyone else has something which gives them more advantages (Better normals, better zoning, better movement, invincible dash ins, better damage, item crash, healing, etc, etc), although, his normal doing unique damage now is alright, but he's still weak, once the stupid glitch with Blackmore is solved and Medusa is toned down, maybe I could move him up, but at best to B- tier, the buffs he received are nice, but he falls behind most of the cast.

I won't change the list much for now, since I haven't gone too much in depth with some characters, and I kind of got sick of playing this patch (Having to quit the game everytime I face Balore is not fun), so I won't play with the characters further for now, although, both Hammer and Master Skeleton look like they could go up, not sure how much, but, Frog, definitely goes down, he received nothing but nerfs, nerfed HP (Which should've been only on VS), nerfed qcf attack, which used to waste 100MP, now it's 125MP, small stuff, but the damage is either 1/3 of what the fire version used to do or less, which makes the move completely worthless, complete turn around for being the alright move it was before (It looked overpowered, even destroyed Cerberus, but it was pretty limited, and just palled in comparison to the tools other characters have), urgh, honestly, he's just too weak and boring to be worth anyone's time now lol.

Offline s̻͔̦͔e̫̣̹͕r̤̗̤̥͔i͎̪̳̺̜o̰̜͓̫̺͖

  • administrator
  • chaotic member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2244
  • no personal text here.
  • Respect: +67
Re: Tier list
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2016, 12:13:42 PM »
0
ronald's not done yet. once all the sprites are complete and move ideas finalized i'll need some sort of compiled list with the moves and descriptions, so i don't have to search through the entire topic for what moves he has and how they evolved to their final forms, which could've happened 3-5 pages later or something.

i'll release the next patch soon, if there are no more immediate bugs. as a version up, not just a partial 18a. despite being a few days i already got nearly 2 pages full of bugfixes. lol.
Dracula was here

Offline FinnishFlame

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 660
  • Oikeutettu Satunnaisuuden
  • Respect: +6
Re: Tier list
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2016, 01:06:32 PM »
0
Alright. The moves are done, with the exception of the item crash, which could use the normal sprites. I believe the movelist can be find on Lukmendes' list.
"Always Alert." "Not As Alert As I Once Was."

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2016, 01:11:42 PM »
0
ronald's not done yet. once all the sprites are complete and move ideas finalized i'll need some sort of compiled list with the moves and descriptions, so i don't have to search through the entire topic for what moves he has and how they evolved to their final forms, which could've happened 3-5 pages later or something.

That's one of the reasons why I made this thread mang:

http://serio.piiym.net/cvbla/board/index.php?topic=1445.0

I also added Killer Ronald there.

Alright. The moves are done, with the exception of the item crash, which could use the normal sprites. I believe the movelist can be find on Lukmendes' list.

But would it be possible to make a giant sparkle for the item crash with his current sprites?

Offline FinnishFlame

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 660
  • Oikeutettu Satunnaisuuden
  • Respect: +6
Re: Tier list
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2016, 10:10:45 PM »
0
I guess the sprite could be made by agglomerating some normal sprites into a cluster, or perhaps enlarging the sprite.

If that doesn't work, I guess a new sprite could be made.
"Always Alert." "Not As Alert As I Once Was."

Offline Medlin

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: 0
Re: Tier list
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2016, 11:39:03 PM »
0
Ronald doesn't have a bad matchup against Skull Knight, it's actualy the only matchup where his ceiling cling matter since you can space yourself to use it when Skull Knight uses his beam, and throw hamburguers at him, when you super jump to avoid his attacks, you can also use the C version of the hamburguers to hit him with proper spacing
I tried a lot, but still fail badly to hit him with hamburgers while cling or jump. Could you please make screenshots or video how to do it properly?
Against Balore the problem was that you need to save some mp before phase 2.

Now when Ronald can kill Blackmore again I finally completed all boss NM with him. The biggest problem is Richter ofc. Another dangerous boss I forgot to mention last time is LD due to the way he was buffed. There are also a few bosses who could be harder if they weren't bugged.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2016, 12:11:38 AM »
0
I tried a lot, but still fail badly to hit him with hamburgers while cling or jump. Could you please make screenshots or video how to do it properly?

I can't make videos (I only use free softwares, which expire after a while lol), but here's a pic:



Now, to do that, when he uses the beam, you should either use his jumps or a backdash to position yourself before using the ceiling cling, being in a low position helps because it means you can be closer to Skull Knight, which makes it better to hit him, so a single jump then ceiling cling works better, since ti leaves Ronald pretty low, the distance itself will come to you naturaly, the thing you need to get used first is creating the distance, and reacting to when he starts his beam, super jumps can help to put you farther away from him, but use a double jump when you're in the right position, because Ronald's mediocre ceiling cling means he can't use it as freely from a super jump.

Quote
Against Balore the problem was that you need to save some mp before phase 2.

Which is not a problem at all, you can just keep using normals until phase 2, and/or use hamburguers once in a while.

Anyway, small updates on the list, Persephone down to S (Poison daggers are still really good, she also got other buffs like being able to string her A normal into special input moves, and she now can throw her Kunai and Shuriken sub weapons more when she gets shot upgrades), Serious Jonathan to S-, Master Skeleton to A, Ronald to C+, Frog gets his own mediocre tier.

I honestly was going to put Grant in A before the 0.6.19 patch came out, he just didn't stand out much to be in S- in that patch, and I overrated him a bit too much.

I still haven't beaten the game with Ronald, Hammer and Master Skeleton, but honestly, the buffs they received, it's significant for something, Ronald's gives him a decent normal with consistent damage, and Master Skeleton, just the buffed MP recovery by itself makes him go to A, buffed cross and up,qcf attack can potentialy make him go even higher, but I'm putting him in A for now, Hammer to A-, but I'm not sure how much a buffed qcf attack matters to him yet, at least it's going to give him a more consistent projectile destroyer, which can help against Medusa, so, I'm purposedly leaving those 3 in a lower position than I think they could be just to be safe, Master Skeleton is potentialy S-, Hammer potentialy A, Ronald potentialy B, maybe even B+, I'll test them out more later.

Edit: Oh right, updated Reimu's character analysis, just wrote about the buffs on her f,f attack and her b,d,f attack.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 01:11:25 AM by Lukmendes »

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1946
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +15
Re: Tier list
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2016, 02:19:49 AM »
0
Sometimes I wonder how I can miss specific details.

I always thought Hammer had a bad matchup against Medusa, didn't look like he had anything to deal with her Medusa heads attack reliably, so, like Carrie, he needs to kill her before she becomes too threatening.

Then I remembered he has the up,qcf attack.

All you have to do, is jump, and use the up,qcf attack to avoid her Medusa Heads attack, while also damaging her, that's it, that simple, the matchup was never bad (Honestly feeling like an idiot for never figuring this out). Now it's even worse for her, even since the bosses started to stop attacking when the character has I-frames, well, now he can use it almost everytime, she used the beam attack? Up,qcf attack, sword dash is? up,qcf attack, Medusa Heads? Up,qcf attack, and if you use only this attack, you can easily kill her without having to worry about MP as long as you hit most times, only the big beam and and the sword stab  are exceptions, but against the big beam you can use the item crash to attack her at least.

With this, very simple strategy, he has the second best matchup against Medusa on the entire game, first one is Persephone, since Poison daggers are very good at damaging her, and Persephone can use her up,qcf attack to absorb the Medusa Heads, making the battle be pretty much impossible for Medusa to win as long as you play well enough, Hammer has the advantage of doing more damage most times though.

Well, I'll admit this was eye opener, and Hammer can probably improve in more matchups if I can find more ways to use his up,qcf attack, the most obvious cases would be Great Minotaur, when he uses the axe boomerang or the gas attack (Though I get the feeling those one won't work), and against Skull Knight when he uses the beam attack, can probably be used against Cyclops to damage him and avoid his hammer attacks too.

Because of that, I moved Hammer to A tier, Medusa matchup and dealing with other projectiles were the things holding him back, but with him being able to easily crush Medusa, and having no real problem with other matchups, he went higher, just isn't even higher because other characters just hit harder.

By the way guys, about the balance, you guys think it's okay for the weakest character to be A tier? Or should everyone be around S? I mean, this kind of game being so balanced means that there's less chance of un-winnable matchups from happening, which means a boss who "should" be strong like Galamoth can be tough without much worries, but then again, A tier as the weakest is fine, I can always write up suggestion lists to see what can possibly be done to beef up a character so they can all go to S-/S, while not losing their core playstyle. So, what do you guys think?

Offline VladCT

  • turbo member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Go home Homura, you're drunk.
  • Respect: +46
Re: Tier list
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2016, 03:02:27 AM »
0
I say go ahead. A balanced roster should by definition mean that everyone is as equally viable as possible.

Offline Anonymous

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 375
  • -nonexistent and 0% creative in names-
  • Respect: 0
Re: Tier list
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2016, 11:24:36 AM »
0
Obviously putting them all nearly as viable as possible would be very difficult, but I don't see why not. It will make every character more enjoyable to play, seeing that they have about the same viability.


(And no, I'm not from 4chan! Or from the textboard)

Offline Medlin

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: 0
Re: Tier list
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2016, 12:20:13 AM »
0
I think it's ok if some characters will be in A in Arcade mode, but they should be stronger than others in pvp then.

 

general forums