October 18, 2017, 03:33:13 AM

Author Topic: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?  (Read 1281 times)

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Offline Dev Anj

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How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« on: October 16, 2016, 03:55:35 AM »
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So I've been playing this game and having fun with it, even though I'm not normally big into fighting or fan games in general. I just have a doubt though: is there any way to effectively use Charlotte's spells besides Ice Needle? The others either seem to have situational range or take a bit too long to get out.

It's not a big deal though since her lightning spam, speed up dashes, and gunmen spam is pretty powerful lol. I barely actually use her spells actually to be frank.

As for additional suggestions: I think her MP needs to recharge faster and maybe more could be done to incentivise using the spells. Also interesting how serio kept the charge up mechanic that many people hated in POR... to be fair the idea is more like fully charged spells are item crashes that only take a bunch of time to set up instead of using complicated button inputs and using hearts, so it makes sense balance wise.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 04:10:58 AM »
+1
So I've been playing this game and having fun with it, even though I'm not normally big into fighting or fan games in general. I just have a doubt though: is there any way to effectively use Charlotte's spells besides Ice Needle? The others either seem to have situational range or take a bit too long to get out.

It's not a big deal though since her lightning spam, speed up dashes, and gunmen spam is pretty powerful lol. I barely actually use her spells actually to be frank.

As for additional suggestions: I think her MP needs to recharge faster and maybe more could be done to incentivise using the spells. Also interesting how serio kept the charge up mechanic that many people hated in POR... to be fair the idea is more like fully charged spells are item crashes that only take a bunch of time to set up instead of using complicated button inputs and using hearts, so it makes sense balance wise.

Charlotte's sub weapon spells are jump and backdash cancelable, all of them, that makes them flexible on how they can be used since you don't have to worry about the gigantic recovery they look like they have, the best one you can use is actualy Raging Fire with it's fast charge up and high damage, and every other ones have uses except the stop watch (Ice needles to protect her and do damage, Nightmare to make specific bosses lose MP and do less damage because of the curse status, Gale Force for some meaty multi hits, specialy against big bosses like Gergoth, and the healing spell as a panic button, though it's only really effective at double shot)

As for making Charlotte have faster MP recovery, don't think that should be done, her MP recovery is already pretty fast, like Yoko's, and Charlotte is actualy one of the two strongest characters in the game (The other being Loretta), and her spells wasting a lot of MP is one of the few weak points she has, and that really shouldn't be gone.

So basicaly, start to use more backdashes and jumps when using her sub weapon spells and that will automaticaly make them more useful, and if you're having trouble to have MP, stop using spells for a bit and use her normals instead, when you hit anything with normals, you get some MP, so that'll help.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 04:25:13 AM »
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Thanks for the hints. I know the spells can be activated while jumping and be backdash cancelled, I guess I'm just bad at my reflexes. It's funny since I barely had any problem with spellcasting in POR, unlike so many newbs. Then again, the enemy reaction time in that game was usually just pathetic.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2016, 04:45:31 AM »
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Thanks for the hints. I know the spells can be activated while jumping and be backdash cancelled, I guess I'm just bad at my reflexes. It's funny since I barely had any problem with spellcasting in POR, unlike so many newbs. Then again, the enemy reaction time in that game was usually just pathetic.

Well, enemy reaction in metroidvanias is hardly ever a big deal with how slow they usualy are lol.

Anyway, I didn't mean that Charlotte's spells can be activated while jumping, I meant that she can jump cancel them, you can for example, jump, start to charge Raging Fire against Paranoia when he's leaving the mirror, release it, then super jump away to create distance.

As for when to use the sub weapon spells, well, it's all about chosing the right time to charge, for example, against Cerberus, you can jump to make him use his anti air firebreath attack, and start to charge ice needles, that way, if Cerberus isn't too close, he'll use the elemental balls, and the ice needles will protect you from them, and damage him as well, if he uses the viariation which he keeps shooting the elemental balls for a while, you can even get close enough to hit with some normals, then backdash away.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but, abuse backdashes, in here they're far better here than any backdash in the series, not only because of the gigantic distance they cover, but also because they have invincibility frames (Though the invincibility frames are disabled when you try to dash through the boss), so that heavily changes the way you can use them, since it means that you don't have to use them to avoid an attack by getting away from it's range, you can use them to avoid an attack that looks like it hits the character, but they're backdashing, so nothing happens, knowing and using this really helps to use Charlotte since it gives her extra time to charge.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2016, 11:19:19 AM »
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Out of curiosity, how would you recommend using the spells in a PvP situation? I assume fully charging is out of the question unless you've got the opposition pinned down or a window of opportunity presents  itself.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2016, 11:35:57 AM »
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I don't play on VS, but, it sounds like the best way to use it would be by not starting the charge in the gound, jump via a super jump or regular jump, start the charge in the air, then go down, Raging Fire, Nightmare, Stop Watch and the healing spell are out of the question to be used, they're either too slow or are up close tools, Ice Needles and Gale Force should be the only sub weapons you should try to use, probably, both of those would have the uses of keeping other players away, though Charlotte would probably struggle against zoners.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 03:12:29 PM »
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What do you mean by zoning? And I remember hearing people complaining about the AI controlled Charlotte in Survival mode on Nightmare being too fast, is this because the AI has much better coordination than human beings, or something else?

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 03:32:30 PM »
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Zoning is a term from fighting games, means to throw long ranged attacks basicaly, one example of zoning would be Charlotte's Ice Needles, or her summon gunmen, a more known example is Street Fighter's Ryu Hadoken.

Charlotte back then was a pain in the ass apparently because she could heal too much, and Nightmare hit really hard, nowadays she doesn't heal anymore, and Nightmare stays on screen for less time, so it hits less hard, though, she is still troublesome in a way since she doesn't try to get too close, she usualy stays in a good range to use Gale Force, which makes it harder to both aproach her or jump over her, plus she has permanent armor status like most bosses, so that makes her sub weapons spells more threatening.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 01:55:05 PM »
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I don't play on VS, but, it sounds like the best way to use it would be by not starting the charge in the gound, jump via a super jump or regular jump, start the charge in the air, then go down
Sounds like this strategy has one flaw. Won't it be obvious to the opposition that you're doing this to charge up a spell if you use it continuously? How would you react to throw them off? I assume you could pull psychological tricks, like jump up and start charging but when they move to attack switch to summoning gunmen, skeletons, throwing lightning or superjumping away and then pulling off some attacks from there.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2016, 02:18:20 PM »
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Sounds like this strategy has one flaw. Won't it be obvious to the opposition that you're doing this to charge up a spell if you use it continuously? How would you react to throw them off? I assume you could pull psychological tricks, like jump up and start charging but when they move to attack switch to summoning gunmen, skeletons, throwing lightning or superjumping away and then pulling off some attacks from there.

Well, if you keep repeating stuff then the enemy will just counter you, like an SFIV player doing an ultra combo when they're knocked down everytime, avoiding to be predictable is one of the important things on any fighter.

Jumping and starting to charge a sub weapon spell, well the problem of you doing that to cancel it is that you'd have to cancel the charging in some way, like  jumping, or backdashing when you land, that would make her moves noticeably slower, not to mention that Charlotte's summon gunmen, it's probably possible to jump to avoid them, so she wouldn't be able to put a lot of pressure with them, specialy considering that if you're far from her, there isn't much she can do, though she could start pressuring with her speed up, would only work on stages with low ceilings though.

Honestly, VS is complicated, I can see Charlotte struggling against both zoners since her zoning tools aren't that good, and against characters with fast invincible dash ins, Charlotte would need to keep a certain distance on a game with fast movement and very different stages, not saying she is weak, just that she sounds really hard to use on VS, her sub weapon spells might be near useless depending on the opponent or stage.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2016, 04:21:09 PM »
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Would you recommend serio to make some changes to make her more viable in PvP then, or do you think her power in the single player modes more than makes up for it?

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 05:47:35 PM »
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Would you recommend serio to make some changes to make her more viable in PvP then, or do you think her power in the single player modes more than makes up for it?

Well, the problem is that I don't play on VS, Charlotte may look bad, but perhaps she's actualy strong, and I can't know whatever the case may be, I only play the game against bosses, and even against them, theory fighting only gets you so far, you need to actualy play the game to see if the strats you imagined actualy work, VS is even worst at this (I don't play on it + good players are much more dangerous than bosses because after a while a player can learn how to avoid certain situations or the opponent's strategies).

Basicaly, I don't know if she's weak or not, but maybe something like Raging Fire could have armor so she isn't interrupted while charging it, Stop Watch would need to have faster charge and the healing spell too, they already waste a lot of MP anyways, those are the best suggestions I can make, but, I don't know if they're good enough, this game's balance on VS is probably as terrible as an anime fighter.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 05:54:50 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2016, 07:17:45 AM »
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Basicaly, I don't know if she's weak or not, but maybe something like Raging Fire could have armor so she isn't interrupted while charging it, Stop Watch would need to have faster charge and the healing spell too, they already waste a lot of MP anyways, those are the best suggestions I can make..

These sound like good suggestions for both PvP and the singleplayer modes too. I would apply the armor effect to Nightmare too. Would make the risk vs. reward trade fairer and actually encourage players to experiment with those spells.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2016, 11:47:11 AM »
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These sound like good suggestions for both PvP and the singleplayer modes too. I would apply the armor effect to Nightmare too. Would make the risk vs. reward trade fairer and actually encourage players to experiment with those spells.

Raging Fire and Healing spell don't need buffs against bosses, those two are already big reasons why she's top 2 in the game, healing spell is shit until you get shot upgrades, but once you do it's really good, raging fire has really fast charge time even without shot upgrades. Nightmare should only do less hits and have consistent damage (If it hits both the boss and projectiles it'll do less damage than usual), it's power to curse bosses is already pretty good, Stop Watch is generaly a bad sub weapon against bosses, so even if it didn't have the charge, it'd still be bad lol.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2016, 12:53:15 PM »
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.. raging fire has really fast charge time even without shot upgrades.

You say this, but the problem is to use it I need to get almost near the boss' face, and I don't feel safe in doing that and then charging up an attack. Perhaps I just don't have good enough skills or I'm too risk averse to use this strategy well. Maybe if you can post a video showing how it works against bosses, it might convince me(yes I know magiciancircle's Charlotte Nightmare playthrough exists but in that I see he takes a lot of unneeded hits throughout the run, so it's not a convincing enough display of how to use her).

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2016, 02:19:41 PM »
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You say this, but the problem is to use it I need to get almost near the boss' face, and I don't feel safe in doing that and then charging up an attack. Perhaps I just don't have good enough skills or I'm too risk averse to use this strategy well. Maybe if you can post a video showing how it works against bosses, it might convince me(yes I know magiciancircle's Charlotte Nightmare playthrough exists but in that I see he takes a lot of unneeded hits throughout the run, so it's not a convincing enough display of how to use her).

You don't get close to a boss to use Raging Fire in most cases, you start to charge it and release it right before the boss gets close and attacks you, then you backdash to be safe, it's not useful against every boss, if it's a boss that you can't get too close for long like Cerberus, Lesser Demon, Carmila, Skull Knight, Albus and others, then chances are that it's either almost useless or really risky to try it, it's just that it's safe and really damaging when you can use it.

Also, only use the level 2 version of it, unlike Ice Needles, the level 1 version of Raging Fire is pretty whatever.

Magiciancircle's playthrough is from a very old version, back when Charlotte was a shitty and boring character, didn't have the summon skeletons, the thunder attack was useless because didn't slow down when it hit something, so if it hit a boss, it would keep advancing, which would probably go through them, and every single sub weapon could not be backdash or jump canceled once you attacked with them, meaning that you really needed to pick the right moment to use them (You still do, but it's far less strict now), and back then Raging fire was only useful against Dracula and maybe Death, everyone else it was worthless.

I can't record videos by the way, can't find a program to record that doesn't expire lol.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 02:25:08 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2016, 06:21:52 AM »
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I can't record videos by the way, can't find a program to record that doesn't expire lol.

Have you tried OBS? Haven't used it myself, but lots of people recommend it as a good solution for recording videos for free. I guess Bandicam works too if you don't mind having a watermark, I've only used it to record a music piece though.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2016, 02:27:56 PM »
+1
Have you tried OBS? Haven't used it myself, but lots of people recommend it as a good solution for recording videos for free. I guess Bandicam works too if you don't mind having a watermark, I've only used it to record a music piece though.

OBS seems to work, was kind of a bitch to make it record MUGEN (At some tries it only had a black screen), but I was able to use it.

No HD, but eh, at least I don't have to wait too long to upload anything, lol.

Here's a video of a boss fight with Charlotte, I also didn't feel like editing the video so you can see OBS at the beginning lol.

(click to show/hide)

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2016, 02:42:33 PM »
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I am awestruck at the sheer skill you showed off there, and your impeccable timing.  I left a comment on that video, but better to post here too. You've certainly convinced me of how powerful she is in the right hands. Thanks!

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2016, 03:16:22 PM »
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I am awestruck at the sheer skill you showed off there, and your impeccable timing.  I left a comment on that video, but better to post here too. You've certainly convinced me of how powerful she is in the right hands. Thanks!

Well, do keep in mind she's a big MP waster, I kinda abused Raging Fire and at the end of the video she had almost no MP left, which could be risky if Great Werewolf didn't die and he used the wolf call attack, meaning she might not be able to use her Speed Up (Summon gunmen can also be used to kill the wolves, but it's riskier), normals and other spells are important to keep her MP in check.

Offline Dev Anj

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 04:10:46 PM »
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Sorry to bring up this topic again, but does she have anything particularly good against Aguni? Raging Fire is out of the question, obviously. Ice Needle seems like it would be perfect but actually lining all the needles to hit him is quite tricky. Gale Force and Nightmare don't seem to do enough damage, Tempest does good damage but makes her vulnerable, and only her fast forward lightning seems to be good while keeping her safe, but there aren't many opportunities to use it to deal full damage.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 04:36:59 PM »
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Quote
Sorry to bring up this topic again, but does she have anything particularly good against Aguni? Raging Fire is out of the question, obviously. Ice Needle seems like it would be perfect but actually lining all the needles to hit him is quite tricky. Gale Force and Nightmare don't seem to do enough damage, Tempest does good damage but makes her vulnerable, and only her fast forward lightning seems to be good while keeping her safe, but there aren't many opportunities to use it to deal full damage.

Gunmen and skeletons do well against aguni, a charged-up speed-up activated in mid-air also does decent damage.


(And no, I'm not from 4chan! Or from the textboard)

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: How to use Charlotte's spells beside Ice Needle?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 04:44:54 PM »
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Sorry to bring up this topic again, but does she have anything particularly good against Aguni? Raging Fire is out of the question, obviously. Ice Needle seems like it would be perfect but actually lining all the needles to hit him is quite tricky. Gale Force and Nightmare don't seem to do enough damage, Tempest does good damage but makes her vulnerable, and only her fast forward lightning seems to be good while keeping her safe, but there aren't many opportunities to use it to deal full damage.

Gale Force is by far her best sub weapon spell to use against him, use it when Aguni does the flame breath spell and after he does the dash in attacks, it's better if you're at the corner and he dashed away, but if you're in the middle of the stage, you can always do a crouching Gale Force and use it once he does the last dash.

You can also use Gale Force if you're under him and he's spitting the fire waves, but in situation you might as well use either qcf+C or tempest, qcf+c is the most advisable one.