October 19, 2017, 07:57:52 PM

Author Topic: Separating whip users  (Read 447 times)

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Offline Lukmendes

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Separating whip users
« on: February 11, 2017, 12:32:08 AM »
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So, one of the issues with the game is that whip users are way too similar to each other, that's because most of them have only some attacks as their most important moves, which most of them share, those moves are:

Whip attack
Whip Spin
Dagger
Axe
Holy Water
Holy Cross
Grand Cross
Thousand Blades
Hydro Storm

The last 3 are just item crashes, they can't be used much during fights (Specialy once you start to improve on the game, killing bosses faster = less uses for item crashes), so those don't need changes, whip attack, well, can't change that, having a good melee game defines them, that also includes whip spin, there are also different speeds for their whip attacks, but it's generaly so slight it doesn't matter much.

So to begin with, what will need to be done to separate them is to nerf their sub weapons, originaly I suggested to nerf their damage, but that's no fun, what we need to do is nerf their uses, so making them waster more MP sounds like a better choice, to "force" them to use other stuff if the player wants to reach their full potential, initial suggestion for nerfs:

Dagger: Start to waste 40 more MP, so that'd make it waste 65 MP, but since the dagger is the least damaging of the sub weapons, it could also receive a damage buff, 10 points should be good enough, should also affect Stella, Sakuya and Grant, Sakuya's would probably be better to get 8 points per dagger however, this also should affect the golden daggers (130 MP).

Axe: Start to waste 50 more MP, that'd make it waste 80 MP, no need for damage buffs, axe hits hard enough already, should also affect Axe Armor and Grant.

Cross: Start to waste 30 more MP, that'd make it waste 130MP, also no need for damage buffs, crosses hit very hard once you get triple shot, though if it were to get a buff, they could do the triple shot's damage by default and not get damage buff per shot, so it can be useable when you don't have as many shots.

Holy Water: Start to waste 50 more MP, that'd make it waste 100MP, no need for damage buffs, already hits really hard.

Those nerfs for the sub weapons are just one part, the other part is to fix the flaw in the whip users' moveset, their special inputs, for most of them, they suck or are underwhelming, so a very different looking whip user would still be a generic one because of said flaws, and if we make the whip users have their special inputs as their most important moves for most cases, then having the important sub weapons in common will matter little.

Most of the suggestions here were already posted in another thread so for the most part it's just copy and paste, however, there are some changes in some moves:

Serious Jonathan: He's honestly already pretty strong with most of his special inputs, up,qcf attack could do more damage, it being backdash cancelable would be good too.

Julius: Buff his f,f attack to do more damage, at least for now, nerfing sub weapons will hurt him badly, specialy considering he doesn't have other offensive moves.

Juste: The only good special inputs he has are f,f+A and both up,qcf attacks, so buff everything else, f,f+C, it could work like it originaly did hit oncem then two fireballs are formed and they spin away, also be backdash cancelable (Makes no sense his f,f+A, a zoning tool, is backdash cancelable, while the f,f+C, an up close tool, isn't), qcf+A, more damage, also maybe it could work like Stella's up,qcf attack and be able to throw more once you get more shot upgrades, could be backdash cancelable too, qcf+C, it should hit harder than up,qcf+C if you can make it hit when it's going upwards and downwards, otherwise it's useless, b,d,f attacks, well, I guess the buff I asked on the General Suggestions thread would work, to make them waste less MP (250 or less).

Nathan: He's already a power house thanks to his up,qcf attack and Y button, only b,d,f could have some buffs, could just get some extra I-frames on both versions of the move so he can use it safely, and qcf shouldn't be a conveniently hidden semi-Richter-qcf attack, maybe instead of him being pushed back when the first kick hits, he could stay where he is to hit with the second kick, although, he still will be pretty close to Richter, so since he has superior MP recovery, he could start to hit less hard for him to have to rely more on up,qcf attack or Y button, maybe his MP recovery could become a bit better so he can use them more often.

Richters/Hanz: Increase the damage of their qcf attack, it already has less range than his f,f attack and isn't cancelable (though it has fast recovery), both Richter's and Hanz' b,d,f could do significantly more damage (Plus having some extra I-frames at the end of the animation), and waste less MP

Simons: Like Julius, they don't have much else offensively, so increase the damage of f,f attack for now.

Sonia: More damage on up,qcf attack, extra I-frames at the end of it, all other moves are good.

Now I feel like I should include non whip users in this as well, since these changes should affect everyone with those sub weapons.

Alucard: More I-frames on his f,f attack so he can backdash safely once he finishes the move, probably should stay the same on VS however, up,qcf+C should also do more damage, perhaps 10~15 more points per lava orb, sounds broken, but it probably won't be since it'd still be inferior to Charlotte's and Loretta's most damaging options, his b,d,f could travel farther away too considering the big recovery it has.

Axe Armor: Axe Rush variations could stop trying to go through an enemy, and just stay in front of the boss hitting them, and have more I-frames so he can backdash safely, maybe they could waste 20 more MP to compensate for this, Boomerang axe should also waste more MP to compensate for the change, 40~50 more should be fine.

Hugh: Make his b,d,f attack do more damage, it has slower charge than other b,d,f attacks, also waste less MP, around 250.

Sakuya: Just buff her f,f attack to do more damage, 4 more points per slash should be good enough, that's to make to move still be useful for damage even with the buffed daggers.

Carrie, Grant, and Stella don't need changes, they're already solid enough with their other moves, the sub weapons nerfs will hurt them naturaly, but proper uses of their other tools will compensate.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2017, 06:02:35 AM »
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Julius: Buff his f,f attack to do more damage, at least for now, nerfing sub weapons will hurt him badly, specialy considering he doesn't have other offensive moves.

Gotta wait until Konami releases a game about the Demon Castle Wars or maybe just a comic or something, since the light novel with him in it didn't give any indication of what his other attacks are.

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The only good special inputs he has are f,f+A and both up,qcf attacks, so buff everything else, f,f+C, it could work like it originaly did hit oncem then two fireballs are formed and they spin away, also be backdash cancelable (Makes no sense his f,f+A, a zoning tool, is backdash cancelable, while the f,f+C, an up close tool, isn't)

I would prefer the f,f+C to be backdash cancellable instead of being exactly the same as in its game, otherwise he would have too many moves with focus on zoning, unless the fireballs from the cross aren't as far as in HoD.

Also, wasn't a complete moveset for Simon already planned, or is that only for the 8-bit Simons?

Will these changes affect only players or also bosses (enemies in survival and boss Richter)?


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2017, 12:40:59 PM »
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Gotta wait until Konami releases a game about the Demon Castle Wars or maybe just a comic or something, since the light novel with him in it didn't give any indication of what his other attacks are.

Well, I already wrote some moves he could have, one where he punches the ground and covers all of it with energy, it's a variation of one of Leon's attacks, the other is a generic chargeable invincible dash in attack, I'm not really feeling that one.

We can always just use another version of one of Leon's attacks to give to him, not like Leon woull use everything.

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I would prefer the f,f+C to be backdash cancellable instead of being exactly the same as in its game, otherwise he would have too many moves with focus on zoning, unless the fireballs from the cross aren't as far as in HoD.

The focus of the fireballs would not be zoning, just extra damage, the cross would stay there if nothing hits it, it's just a tool to leave hitboxes around, kind of like Hammer's mines.

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Also, wasn't a complete moveset for Simon already planned, or is that only for the 8-bit Simons?

If my suggestions are accepted, then it should affect all of them, it's hard enough to write a moveset for one Simon, having to write different movesets for the 3 of them would be a pain in the ass lol.

It could sound like they'd be each other's clones with the same moveset, but they're all Simon, so having those similarities is understandable, plus Chronicles Simon has flame whip mode, CV4 Simon is the fastest one to attack and has 8-way whipping, 8-bit Simon has the worst movement in the game, high damage and is a midget, those things separate them enough, plus there's also my suggestion of removing Laurels from Chronicles Simon and CV4 Simon, letting only 8-bit Simon have it.

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Will these changes affect only players or also bosses (enemies in survival and boss Richter)?

Should affect all of them.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2017, 03:51:03 PM »
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Should affect all of them.

Huh, so getting hit by him spamming crosses and the double holy water will be less fatal lol.

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Well, I already wrote some moves he could have, one where he punches the ground and covers all of it with energy, it's a variation of one of Leon's attacks, the other is a generic chargeable invincible dash in attack, I'm not really feeling that one.

We can always just use another version of one of Leon's attacks to give to him, not like Leon woull use everything.

Also not really feeling the chargeable invincible dash in attack. The pro part of it is that it's somewhat unique? Only Serious Jonathan has that, and others may have dash-ins but not chargeable. But for one thing, Julius doesn't look like a charging high-speed character, but more the "turtler" kind, with better melee combat than high mobility or zoning. At most I can think of a chargeable dash-in for Julius is pretty much him rushing forward quickly while spinning his whip around him or something (sounds too close to whip rush though).

Also, while the former suggestion of him punching the ground may sound attractive, I would honestly wait, it's preferable to see how his moveset will look like according to the game and follow it one time, rather than make a moveset now, and then have to change it when Konami releases the game for that period, preferably not as another cash-grab pachislot/pachinko game (if it's difficult to see how the characters interact in the case of arcade trio, it will be a lot worse in for the characters from those slot machines, like Angela, Victoria, etc.)


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2017, 05:22:31 PM »
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Huh, so getting hit by him spamming crosses and the double holy water will be less fatal lol.

Not really, AI players have zero problem with MP, it wouldn't really change much, lol.

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Also not really feeling the chargeable invincible dash in attack.

I was talking about the charging one, the other one I feel like it's fitting both because a Belmont used before, and because it fits Julius' "power style" attacks.

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The pro part of it is that it's somewhat unique? Only Serious Jonathan has that, and others may have dash-ins but not chargeable. But for one thing, Julius doesn't look like a charging high-speed character, but more the "turtler" kind, with better melee combat than high mobility or zoning.

Julius is kind of a high mobility character though, runs faster than Soma in AoS, has divekick from a single jump (No one else in the series has this), his super jump doesn't have recovery when he hits the ceiling, and that invincible dash in, in DoS he's just your everyday Belmont with a faster whip and sub weapon throwing speed, has a shitty triple jump too, in HD he has mobility once again more or less with the invincible dash in.

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Also, while the former suggestion of him punching the ground may sound attractive, I would honestly wait, it's preferable to see how his moveset will look like according to the game and follow it one time, rather than make a moveset now, and then have to change it when Konami releases the game for that period, preferably not as another cash-grab pachislot/pachinko game (if it's difficult to see how the characters interact in the case of arcade trio, it will be a lot worse in for the characters from those slot machines, like Angela, Victoria, etc.)

I don't think that'd be a good idea to keep waiting until Konami does something, because they'll probably do nothing, if so Julius will be forever incomplete.

If we ever do get something that shows another power of his, just add as another input, and if 1999 game ever happens, just add young Julius with that moveset, it's not complicated really lol.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2017, 05:32:04 PM »
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I was talking about the charging one, the other one I feel like it's fitting both because a Belmont used before, and because it fits Julius' "power style" attacks.

For the sprites, it seems possible to mash up his frames when he does the downwards whip attack, and put it in crouching, so his hand(s) will seem like they're punching the ground. Also judging by the fact it hits the entire ground, it should waste a considerable amount of MP, like 250-300 I presume?

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If we ever do get something that shows another power of his, just add as another input, and if 1999 game ever happens, just add young Julius with that moveset, it's not complicated really lol.

Well, the complicated part I see of adding another character from the next game is that based on the graphics and gameplay Konami is taking on, it will most likely be 3D or 2.5D like on the 3DS, so if that happens someday, someone will have to sprite young Julius into a SoTN style form, and I don't think I should state again what's going on with the forum.

Would be interesting though, Old Julius meeting his young self in survival for example, kind of like Old Joseph meeting his young self in those Jojo fighting games


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2017, 06:00:53 PM »
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For the sprites, it seems possible to mash up his frames when he does the downwards whip attack, and put it in crouching, so his hand(s) will seem like they're punching the ground. Also judging by the fact it hits the entire ground, it should waste a considerable amount of MP, like 250-300 I presume?

Should only waste that much if it hits like a truck carrying elephants or somethin', we already have Montano's beam in the game, and that is an instantaneous full screen beam with fast activation, and it's not really overpowered.

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Well, the complicated part I see of adding another character from the next game is that based on the graphics and gameplay Konami is taking on, it will most likely be 3D or 2.5D like on the 3DS, so if that happens someday, someone will have to sprite young Julius into a SoTN style form, and I don't think I should state again what's going on with the forum.

If Young Julius is an impossibility, then too bad really, nothing else we can do.

Offline Dracula9

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2017, 09:58:03 PM »
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Gotta wait until Konami releases a game about the Demon Castle Wars

I mean, it's not like a handful of us are already making exactly this or anything. :P

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Separating whip users
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 02:27:18 AM »
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I mean, it's not like a handful of us are already making exactly this or anything. :P

*facepalms* right, I realized I forgot about fanmade games. In case that doesn't happen, we could draw a lot of inspiration from said fan games, if we get the permission from their respective creators though.


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