December 12, 2017, 09:49:06 PM

Author Topic: Bosses ranking list  (Read 670 times)

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Offline Lukmendes

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Bosses ranking list
« on: April 01, 2017, 02:43:17 PM »
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So this is an idea I've been having for a while, a thread for me to write down exactly why a boss is either good or bad, I'll be explaining why by separating this in 3 points:

Damage: How much damage they do overall, and how likely they are to hit you.

Counter picking: How the bosses are counter picked by a certain characters and how bad it is overall.

Pressure: How much the boss can put you in bad situations and how hard it is to escape said situations.

All of those 3 things correlate to each other, a boss who basicaly doesn't get countered by anyone but has no pressure is not going to have high "counter picking" points since the cast itself doesn't have trouble to deal with him.

I plan to do this with all bosses, including survival only ones (Danathus, SotN Creature, Whip Succubus, Remilia) this is something that I feel like it'll be good for players to be aware of the bosses, and for Serio to know how good or bad a boss is.

Richter:

(click to show/hide)

Albus
(click to show/hide)

Skull Knight
(click to show/hide)

Remilia
(click to show/hide)

Dario:
(click to show/hide)

Great Armor
(click to show/hide)

If I were to make a suggestion Serio, Somacula should be the only one with a 30/30, make him work in a similar way Richter does, and have no "real" counter picks, winning by just being good.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 04:59:10 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Zufeng

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 03:01:54 PM »
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Waiting for old axe armor,because i can only beat him with same axe armor or spamming werewolf ice/fire projectile.
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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 08:07:32 PM »
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Waiting for old axe armor,because i can only beat him with same axe armor or spamming werewolf ice/fire projectile.

I'm not going to write about player AI characters, I can't fight them consistently enough since they can only be fought on Survival mode, the other survival exclusive bosses can be fought by using GUI, so I can easily fight them.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 04:43:32 AM »
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Added Skull Knight to the list, also edited Richter's damage from 10/10 to 8/10, I'm somewhat relearning the game, and I had forgotten that Richter is so random he can screw himself, which will make him not hit you as hard, his pressure is still at 10/10 though, even he doesn't hit as hard, doesn't mean that'll always happen, and phase 2 exists, that's more than enough to be really pressuring even on a bad day.

I'm being really slow when writing those, and honestly it doesn't take long to do so and I should try to speed it up, I could try to get into the game again to write faster.

Do request if you want to see ranking of a specific boss by the way, I'm just choosing them at random here, so requests would make me focus on a boss earlier.

Offline Zufeng

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 04:13:03 PM »
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Do request if you want to see ranking of a specific boss by the way, I'm just choosing them at random here, so requests would make me focus on a boss earlier.
How about Remilia? or perhaps Great Armor?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 05:52:02 AM »
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I would like to see rankings of story mode bosses, the ones no one will be able to avoid.

Most importantly Albus, the one story boss that can mess you over, though not as much as Richter I guess..


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Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 05:25:08 PM »
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How about Remilia? or perhaps Great Armor?

I would like to see rankings of story mode bosses, the ones no one will be able to avoid.

Most importantly Albus, the one story boss that can mess you over, though not as much as Richter I guess..

Done, done and done.

I had actualy forgotten that Albus was this tough, he actualy would be the toughest boss in the game since his pressure is more consistent that Richter's and he hits harder, he just isn't because Albus' counter picks are pretty nasty.

Sometimes I may change the ranking of specific bosses, I'm just making them as I go and them compare with the previous ones to see if the ranking makes sense, the one I have the most trouble with writing is damage, I need to look both at the damage and how likely the boss is going to hit you, and I have to play the game again to see if the damage is good or not, because usualy I judge like "If I get hit by this boss, I don't care, but if I get hit by this other boss I may be in trouble".

Writing those rankings actualy reminded me of an issue this game has, the bosses' "balance", we have very pressuring bosses like Richter and Albus, but we also have Metroidvania-level of being weak as shit like Dario, Astarte, Great Armor, and I'm not saying those and everyone else should be buffed to Richter levels, but they should have something "special" to make you respect them, because they don't put pressure, they're too easy to kill, on the other hand, Richter and Albus (Specialy Albus) can be too hard to kill because of their random nature, so basicaly I think some really weak bosses should be buffed to do something, while Richter and Albus could be nerfed to be consistent on what they'll do.

I wrote here what could be done to buff Astarte and Dario: http://serio.piiym.net/cvbla/board/index.php?topic=1436.msg15172#msg15172

Now to buff Great Armor, his biggest issues are that he walks backwards after he does an attack and you're close to him, so he's left vulnerable and can be attacked, and he has no counter for backdash, everything he does can be backdashed, if you do so when far from him and backdash in his direction when he does any attack, you'll avoid everything he tries, and if you're close to him, backdash, jump option selects everything.

Now for some buff ideas would be to "separate" his attacks, they are either "quick" moves, those being his sword strikes, or slow moves which leave hitboxes around, the different being that some are worst versions of others.

His shield attack, I think it shouldn't be that fast when the shield retreats, and could have more range, that'd make it hit twice, when it goes forward and when it retreats.

The sword strike which raises rocks from the ground, needs to be faster, it's a worst version of the "sword fire strike".

I'm not sure what could be done about him stepping backwards to be fair, the way he's made is to walk towards you if you're far, and that can make you be cornered, which is why walking backwards is needed, maybe his zoning could be buffed for him to walk forward less, and he could stop walking backwards or do so much less often.

Offline UBerserker

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 09:09:37 PM »
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Remilia's low HP blood-sucking skill > Skull Knight

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 09:57:44 PM »
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Remilia's low HP blood-sucking skill > Skull Knight

Only back when it couldn't be backdashed through, which made it be probably the best boss move in the entire game, nowadays it's a powerful move, but not overwhelming since you can backdash it on reaction, just need to have your back facing her.

Also maybe we should take a look at what Great Armor did in other games to see what this one could have, for possible buffs and whatnot, I think a Great Armor from one of the 3D games could before invincible briefly, that could be adapted to make it waste his MP I guess, or he could do that with that defensive pose he takes, like make that pose and maybe start to heal? Though I'm just spitballing the healing ability here lol.

Offline UBerserker

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 06:32:37 PM »
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Only back when it couldn't be backdashed through, which made it be probably the best boss move in the entire game, nowadays it's a powerful move, but not overwhelming since you can backdash it on reaction, just need to have your back facing her.

Also maybe we should take a look at what Great Armor did in other games to see what this one could have, for possible buffs and whatnot, I think a Great Armor from one of the 3D games could before invincible briefly, that could be adapted to make it waste his MP I guess, or he could do that with that defensive pose he takes, like make that pose and maybe start to heal? Though I'm just spitballing the healing ability here lol.

Oh wait you can backdash the move now? Alright that's one boss nerfed to dumpster lol

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 04:51:17 PM »
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Oh wait you can backdash the move now? Alright that's one boss nerfed to dumpster lol

It was a stupid move to be fair, the best way to dodge it would be normal jump to avoid the first, double jump to stay in the air for a bit longer, then super jump away when she does the second one, then land far from her to avoid the third one, but that didn't look reliable at all.

The way Remilia is right now is mostly fine, though buffs she could use to have a better pressure would be, that move where she throws many lines around the stage while making an hexagon around her just sucks ass, it's her slowest move and puts no pressure, it's there just so she can become vulnerable, should either be buffed with something like, making that spot behind her the only safe place (Though those orbs would need to be removed so everyone can go there when she flies low, also make her not use it when flying too low because at times she'll do contact damage if you try to walk or backdash under her), or just remove it. The big semi tracking big works could have combo consistency, and the multi small orbs which cover a side of the screen could do twice more damage.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 03:24:18 AM »
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Quote
The way Remilia is right now is mostly fine, though buffs she could use to have a better pressure would be, that move where she throws many lines around the stage while making an hexagon around her just sucks ass, it's her slowest move and puts no pressure, it's there just so she can become vulnerable, should either be buffed with something like, making that spot behind her the only safe place (Though those orbs would need to be removed so everyone can go there when she flies low, also make her not use it when flying too low because at times she'll do contact damage if you try to walk or backdash under her), or just remove it. The big semi tracking big works could have combo consistency, and the multi small orbs which cover a side of the screen could do twice more damage.

Or maybe remove the telegraphing part of the lines (remove the white lines that appear before the red, thick ones appear) and just do the attack instantly?


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Offline UBerserker

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 11:06:43 AM »
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Maybe make her triple ray move work exactly like in Touhouvania 1? Seemed way better there, the CVF version is very slow and stressful.

Offline Lukmendes

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 01:23:47 PM »
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Or maybe remove the telegraphing part of the lines (remove the white lines that appear before the red, thick ones appear) and just do the attack instantly?

Well, the move still would need to get buffs even with that, most times when she uses it, you don't even have to move, just stand still and you avoid it, just when she's flying low is when you can to do something, and that is press down, lol.

Maybe make her triple ray move work exactly like in Touhouvania 1? Seemed way better there, the CVF version is very slow and stressful.

Compared to the videos I saw, Remilia in general is much slower, hell, she's even the slowest boss in CVF lol.

If you mean that move which there are those white circles around her, it's pretty slow yeah, it's main pressure thing is to leave hitboxes around before she throws the next one, specialy from the second to the third, you just have to go behind her generaly, the move isn't that pressuring.

I guess some of her weaker moves could be buffed to her "Touhouvania style", by having fast activation, like that "hexagon" one.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 01:35:06 PM by Lukmendes »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Bosses ranking list
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 11:41:46 AM »
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Compared to the videos I saw, Remilia in general is much slower, hell, she's even the slowest boss in CVF lol.

If you mean that move which there are those white circles around her, it's pretty slow yeah, it's main pressure thing is to leave hitboxes around before she throws the next one, specialy from the second to the third, you just have to go behind her generaly, the move isn't that pressuring.

I guess some of her weaker moves could be buffed to her "Touhouvania style", by having fast activation, like that "hexagon" one.

Also different in Touhouvania than in CVF is that the hexagon lasers turn in Touhouvania. Maybe the same can be adapted here, but definitely faster, originally it turns so slowly, even slower than Legion in PoR.

Basically faster activation and turning to make sure the player doesn't stand in one spot for free hits.


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