May 27, 2019, 02:29:58 PM

Author Topic: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus  (Read 15077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« on: August 29, 2012, 07:00:22 PM »
0
I'm sure everyone is aware by now that the premise of this game is that Uber Dracula beat Trevor in 1476 after both Lisa and Adrian/Alucard were killed due to mobs/violence, thus prematurely ending the Belmont bloodline and damning humanity to centuries of tyranny. Dracula's power grows until he accumulates enough to threaten the stability of all existence, and this in turn prompts time travelers inc. (Aeon, Germaine et al) to start dragging heroes from other timelines to deal with the threat. There's more to it then just that (in the spoiler below for space reasons), but that's an abridged summary. :P

(click to show/hide)

As Dracula's chaotic power is threatening reality to a severe degree with its continued growth, he's become a focal point of dimensional activity, a sort of negative vacuum that is accruing any ounce of "his" power that he can from across the Castlevania multiverse. All of the evil minions that have served Dracula in the official games will make their way here. Their souls/spirits are as much "afflicted by Draculas curse, or related to it in some way" as the heroes are, though this (obviously) needs not apply to the beasts that are fairly commonplace, like the Phantom Bat, Minotaur, and Werewolf bosses (to name a few). :x

Aeon and Germaine work to counter (and hopefully eliminate) Uber Dracula (his might and growing army) through the recruiting/summoning of heroes. Those heroes that fail on their journey to slay the count are forcefully conscripted against their comrades, to further impede them on their quest (i.e. Sisters, Albus, Richter, etc). On that note, mirror matches should be approached in a self-reflective way, or via doppelganger, such as the instance where player Richter encounters boss Richter. Should player Richter be defeated, he will effectively become the boss Richter other player characters encounter on their quest.

Not sure if it's my place to post this, but I feel it'll help establish/cement key concepts:

...here is how I choose to split hairs:

UNIVERSE - The mythos surrounding a property (e.g. the Castlevania mythos is its own universe, whilst the Touhou mythos has its own--though it's obvious that at least two Touhou games are more than a little influenced by the Castlevania universe, and any argument to the contrary is just ridiculous).

TIMELINE - A version of reality created through the decisions made by the citizens of a given universe  (e.g. within the Castlevania universe there exists multiple timelines, including the Main/IGA timeline and the Reboot/LoS timeline).

DIMENSION - A plane of existence for a given entity (e.g. Death and Aeon are gods and therefore exist on a higher plane than Simon and Trevor).

To recap, there's at least a handful of timelines that characters/bosses will be culled from for this game:
  • Uber Dracula's timeline (the one where the game takes place proper in)
  • Main timeline (featuring the Classicvanias and KCET games)
  • Gaiden timeline (where Legends and the KCEK games are)
  • Cellphone universe(s) (yes, plural)
  • Player Dracula's timeline (he'll be the only one coming from his own, according to ideas Morrison had)
  • Touhouvania universe (Sakuya and Reimu's home, notice it's not generic Touhou)
Duke and Ronald will in all likelihood not have stories at all, but that's not important for this discussion. >_>

This thread will serve as a discussion focus so we can come to a consensus about each individual boss (if applicable) regarding finer details of where they come from, what their motivations are, and how they're going to behave/(re)act to events in the stories presented in this sub-forum. It is strongly recommended that you follow these guidelines when penning/drafting your stories. :T

[DO NOT POST YET]
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 07:50:00 AM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 07:00:58 PM »
0
Boss:Dario Bossi (W.I.P.)
Origin:Main dimension (2036 A.D.)
Summary:A punk from modern times, he comes from the future after running out of Celia's castle, powerless because of Soma Cruz's actions. His dark lord candidacy is what piques Uber Dracula's interest, whom enlists/draws Dario into his realm and service, granting the candidate an approximation of his previous power. Dario serves Dracula unquestioningly in awe/fear of the true Dark Lord's power, and for a chance at taking revenge against Soma, with the promise of more power should he succeed in his task. Far better to serve the devil, than to stand in his way.

[DO NOT POST YET]
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 01:35:14 AM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 07:01:22 PM »
0
[RESERVED]

[DO NOT POST YET]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:15:28 PM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 07:01:46 PM »
0
[RESERVED]

[YOU MAY NOW POST]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:15:38 PM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 07:14:59 PM »
0
Don't mind the blank posts above. They're reserved in case the game gets enough bosses that summarizing everything will spill into multiple posts. :3

Now, let's get the obvious out of the way. Uber Dracula? You're dumb if you don't know where he's from. Death is Death, and he'll have ties to every dimension, excepting the Touhouverse since they have their own Death gods. Brainless/feral monsters like Agni/Cerberus/Phantom Bat are largely of no concern either. :P

Having said that, there's a few bosses that people seem to be generally agreeing on from the stories I've seen, though we'll need to chisel out specifics still:

  • Dario:
    A punk from modern times, he comes from 2036 after running out of Celia's castle, powerless. Though he is a dark lord candidate, he ends up in Uber Dracula's service, and in awe/fear of the true Dark Lord's power, serves him unquestioningly while waiting for a chance for revenge against Soma. After all, it's better to serve the devil than to stand in his way.
  • Olrox:
    A cunning, if not conniving schemer, Olrox has plans of his own to take the throne of the Dark Lord, but lacks the will to carry it out under Dracula's reign. He bides his time, seldom revealing his cards to key players unless he is certain he can tie up loose ends, or if they are of no threat to his plans.

There are points of contention to be had with but one boss so far:

  • Brauner:
    I fancy him as a native to Uber Dracula's dimension, simply so we don't get people regurgitating PoR's version word-for-word where he assumes Dracula is an idiot and that he can do better. Brauner will still lose his daughters to tragedy, but Dracula should be the one who offers Brauner a chance to see his daughters again, resurrecting them in exchange for Brauner's service and loyalty. This serves to underscore his mad desperation, in that he expects Uber Dracula to uphold their bargain when clearly the mad king simply wants to enlist another soldier.

And now the floor is yours. Let's see what we agree on, and I'll update this thread accordingly as things are set (more or less) in stone. :]
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 07:16:27 PM »
0
My initial thoughts are that Albus and Richter, at least, must come from their own dimension. With Trevor dead, Richter would obviously never exist in the current dimension. And if Dracula never died, then Albus might never have become the researcher that he is now, and definitely not the possessed/insane person he is - there would be no Dominus glyph.

Dario, I'm undecided on. It would seem that he has no purpose if he weren't pulled from his own dimension, since he'd just be a regular guy (plus some Agnified powers, perhaps) since he would never be raised as a "successor" to Dracula. But if he is pulled from his own dimension, what reason does he have to fight, if there's no chance of him becoming the dark lord (since Dracula isn't dead)? I know some people, myself included, have been writing as though Dracula himself might promise Dario a chunk of power if he does well - and if he fights for that reason, then perhaps he should be from the Uber Drac dimension.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 07:25:54 PM »
0
I made a similar thread long ago, should I delete it and paste what I wrote here? (and add the "aware of what's going on" thing next to each character, of course)

Also, Dario is stupid. He was humiliated by Soma and knows tha if he joins the Dark Lord he will eventually get the chance to fight him.
Let's say Dario fell in a time rift (Canon Dimension) and found out that Dracula is much more scarier than the Twilight stories at the cinema so he is now aware of who the BIG BAD BOSS is. Then Dracula saw how much hatred was in Dario's heart and promised him to give him back his powers to help him in fulfilling his revenge. To trick himself into thinking he is a thought guy he says to himself "First Soma, then... Dracula!" even though he knows that he really doesn't have what it takes to confront Dracula.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 07:37:06 PM by Malphas »

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 05:54:42 AM »
0
  • Brauner:
    I fancy him as a native to Uber Dracula's dimension, simply so we don't get people regurgitating PoR's version word-for-word where he assumes Dracula is an idiot and that he can do better. Brauner will still lose his daughters to tragedy, but Dracula should be the one who offers Brauner a chance to see his daughters again, resurrecting them in exchange for Brauner's service and loyalty. This serves to underscore his mad desperation, in that he expects Uber Dracula to uphold their bargain when clearly the mad king simply wants to enlist another soldier.

There is a slight problem with this. Brauner died at the year 1944. He roughly became a vampire 30 years before that when his daughters died.

If he was a native of the Uber Dracula's Dimension, and the current year is 1886. Then Brauner would be rather young at that time, wouldn't he?
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 02:17:19 PM »
0
There is a slight problem with this. Brauner died at the year 1944. He roughly became a vampire 30 years before that when his daughters died.

If he was a native of the Uber Dracula's Dimension, and the current year is 1886. Then Brauner would be rather young at that time, wouldn't he?

This is true, but things are definitely happening differently in Uber Drac's dimension - it's entirely possible that there wouldn't even be a WWI for his daughters to die in, even if that year hasn't come around yet. Something else could have killed his daughters in this alternate dimension earlier on.

Although... unless we assume that Brauner was somehow born earlier in this alternate dimension, not only would he be really young, but his daughters would either not be born yet, or far too young to be confused with Stella and Loretta. So... your point probably still stands.

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 02:19:10 PM »
0
Perhaps it would be more logical for the later part of the main story to start later? Perhaps the year 1920s or 40s?

Otherwise, it will get very complex with Brauner, Stella and Loretta. It also wouldn't effect how others would come into the story either.
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 02:33:21 PM »
0
Different dimensions can also mean that penicilin was invented in the stone age.
I think Brauner could be married and divorced twelve times by that time since it's not exactly the same world.

Still, the best thing we could do is change him into the EXTRA dimension (which is basically any alternative dimension not stated by Cyber)
Brauner tries to summon Dracula's castle in his dimension, but uber-Drac's castlevania is so powerful that opens a rift in time and Brauner is dragged into Uber-dimension. Finally, Brauner decides to serve Dracula to take revenge on humanity.

INTERESTING POINT: Dracula could be the embodiment of all evils so he could actually be more Dark Lord than ever. That means that he MAKES Dario more blind for hatred and anger than ever ans so he MAKES the same with Brauner. He can make your negative emotions rise to the extent that you lose control of yourself and become either a mindless servant or a self-righteous crazy fool who thinks that serving him is the right thing because it is.

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2012, 02:43:28 PM »
0
Still, the best thing we could do is change him into the EXTRA dimension (which is basically any alternative dimension not stated by Cyber)
Brauner tries to summon Dracula's castle in his dimension, but uber-Drac's castlevania is so powerful that opens a rift in time and Brauner is dragged into Uber-dimension. Finally, Brauner decides to serve Dracula to take revenge on humanity.

That seems unnecessary. Besides, I think we've already decided that the focus for Brauner is not his hatred of humanity, but rather his love for his daughters.

Anyhow, to talk about another boss - I think Barlowe should be from his own dimension. There, he could grow into the person he is now, with his desire to give humanity what it "really wants" by bringing back Dracula. Now that he's ended up in Uber Drac's house, he's super happy and a devoted servant.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2012, 01:18:46 AM »
0
My initial thoughts are that Albus and Richter, at least, must come from their own dimension. With Trevor dead, Richter would obviously never exist in the current dimension. And if Dracula never died, then Albus might never have become the researcher that he is now, and definitely not the possessed/insane person he is - there would be no Dominus glyph.

I figure for Albus that it'd be best if he comes from the time just after absorbing Dominus Agony, but before being confronted by Shanoa in Mystery Manor. That way, the boss version has Dominus Agony pulsing around inside him causing his fits of insanity as he struggles to maintain his own mind, and my draft for Player Albus retains its interesting angle to work off of. :D

Richter definitely cannot be "native" either. I haven't thought about his origins as much, but I'm certain a plausible motivation could be given beyond simply "I will kill Dracula over and over again for teh lulz!" in that it stems from his insecurities, his fears about becoming useless and forgotten after his role in history runs its course. If people aren't going to remember him, then screw the people; he'll do whatever he wants. How's that sound? :x

Dario, I'm undecided on. It would seem that he has no purpose if he weren't pulled from his own dimension, since he'd just be a regular guy (plus some Agnified powers, perhaps) since he would never be raised as a "successor" to Dracula. But if he is pulled from his own dimension, what reason does he have to fight, if there's no chance of him becoming the dark lord (since Dracula isn't dead)? I know some people, myself included, have been writing as though Dracula himself might promise Dario a chunk of power if he does well - and if he fights for that reason, then perhaps he should be from the Uber Drac dimension.

Also, Dario is stupid. He was humiliated by Soma and knows tha if he joins the Dark Lord he will eventually get the chance to fight him.
Let's say Dario fell in a time rift (Canon Dimension) and found out that Dracula is much more scarier than the Twilight stories at the cinema so he is now aware of who the BIG BAD BOSS is. Then Dracula saw how much hatred was in Dario's heart and promised him to give him back his powers to help him in fulfilling his revenge. To trick himself into thinking he is a thought guy he says to himself "First Soma, then... Dracula!" even though he knows that he really doesn't have what it takes to confront Dracula.

I like the idea of Dario being given power for revenge against Soma, and then being promised more once the deed is done. It explains why he has the winding dragon attack without the negative effects of something like Agni stapled to his soul. I'll amend that in the first summary post. :P

I made a similar thread long ago, should I delete it and paste what I wrote here? (and add the "aware of what's going on" thing next to each character, of course)

No sense in deleting it. I can move in to this forum and lock it for archival, and you can just link to your previous words to save typing time. :]

EDIT: Hmmm... I might've done that already. At any rate, you can still link to/quote your older posts if you don't feel like retyping, although I doubt there's a need to lock things that old. :S

This is true, but things are definitely happening differently in Uber Drac's dimension - it's entirely possible that there wouldn't even be a WWI for his daughters to die in, even if that year hasn't come around yet. Something else could have killed his daughters in this alternate dimension earlier on.

That was the idea I had; since the normal flow of time (normal vs. the main dimension) has been disrupted in Uber Drac's realm, things may very likely happen out of "sequence" or what have you. It might be a bit difficult to work with regarding Stella/Loretta, and I'm not sure if Fou has incorporated or even wants to incorporate this in his stories for Jon/Charlotte, but we'll figure it out. :/

That seems unnecessary. Besides, I think we've already decided that the focus for Brauner is not his hatred of humanity, but rather his love for his daughters.

Precisely. If I wanted to see him as he was in PoR, then I'd play that game, and get to watch Death bisect him afterwards to boot. There's no reason to be parroting the source games religiously, especially when they're going through the silly animu crap of DoS/PoR (random note: OoE needs better company to hang out with). >_>

Anyhow, to talk about another boss - I think Barlowe should be from his own dimension. There, he could grow into the person he is now, with his desire to give humanity what it "really wants" by bringing back Dracula. Now that he's ended up in Uber Drac's house, he's super happy and a devoted servant.

Perhaps while researching into the Dominus seal (and in the process of being corrupted by it), he's transported to Uber Drac's realm. Uber Drac senses his power trapped within the coffin/seal, and has Barlowe (now corrupted and easily swayed) break it anyway and add that sealed power to his own repertoire. :]

My idea for when Shanoa's story reaches Barlowe is that she feigns "slab of concrete with legs" for a bit (i.e. how she was in OoE proper) before Barlowe drops the bomb that he already sacrificed Shanoa from Uber Drac's realm years ago to increase his power. From there, they go into a speech war on the morality of their mission, which highlights how "freedom from Dracula" was twisted into "freedom through Dracula" through the years. A corruption angle is more sensible anyway, and sets Barlowe/Ecclesia apart from Shaft/cults who were evil all along. :x
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 01:41:18 AM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »
0
Quote
I figure for Albus that it'd be best if he comes from the time just after absorbing Dominus Agony, but before being confronted by Shanoa in Mystery Manor. That way, the boss version has Dominus Agony pulsing around inside him causing his fits of insanity as he struggles to maintain his own mind, and my draft for Player Albus retains its interesting angle to work off of. :D

I was going to ask about Boss Albus, since I'm writing that section for Sakuya at this current time.

I'm guessing both shaft and camilla are native to uber drac's timeline?
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2012, 04:00:46 PM »
0
I figure for Albus that it'd be best if he comes from the time just after absorbing Dominus Agony, but before being confronted by Shanoa in Mystery Manor. That way, the boss version has Dominus Agony pulsing around inside him causing his fits of insanity as he struggles to maintain his own mind, and my draft for Player Albus retains its interesting angle to work off of. :D

I was thinking the same thing.

Quote
Richter definitely cannot be "native" either. I haven't thought about his origins as much, but I'm certain a plausible motivation could be given beyond simply "I will kill Dracula over and over again for teh lulz!" in that it stems from his insecurities, his fears about becoming useless and forgotten after his role in history runs its course. If people aren't going to remember him, then screw the people; he'll do whatever he wants. How's that sound? :x

Interesting... I may look over my Richter encounter again to see if I might want to tweak it.

Quote
That was the idea I had; since the normal flow of time (normal vs. the main dimension) has been disrupted in Uber Drac's realm, things may very likely happen out of "sequence" or what have you. It might be a bit difficult to work with regarding Stella/Loretta, and I'm not sure if Fou has incorporated or even wants to incorporate this in his stories for Jon/Charlotte, but we'll figure it out. :/

If we're to assume that Brauner is native, and Uber Dracula "promises" to bring his daughters back, then it's entirely possible that he never met the twins and confused them for his own daughters. As such, perhaps Stella and Loretta can be from the main timeline, which would explain why they think of Brauner as their dad. I doubt there will be any conflict since Brauner will never encounter the boss-twins. And if the player twins are from before PoR (say, the beginning of sisters mode), then they wouldn't know Brauner at all, thus no conflict there either. When they encounter him, though, he could always say something like "you remind me of my daughters... can it be? Has Dracula come through with his promise?"

Quote
Precisely. If I wanted to see him as he was in PoR, then I'd play that game, and get to watch Death bisect him afterwards to boot. There's no reason to be parroting the source games religiously, especially when they're going through the silly animu crap of DoS/PoR (random note: OoE needs better company to hang out with). >_>

Speaking of which, did you really approve Malphas's Hammer story? It seems rather silly and lighthearted to me.

Quote
A corruption angle is more sensible anyway, and sets Barlowe/Ecclesia apart from Shaft/cults who were evil all along. :x

I like that. That's a good way of keeping him separate from the other Drac-revivers.

Offline Fou-Lu

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +2
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2012, 04:37:28 PM »
0
Quote
Speaking of which, did you really approve Malphas's Hammer story? It seems rather silly and lighthearted to me.
Nope

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2012, 04:41:04 PM »
0
Not all of them have been edited to fit the dimensional edit because right now I don't have time, but how abour Cyber keeps adding those characters whose story we have agreed with? it would make of this thread the perfect guide for characters' personalities and a MUST SEE to write any story.

BOSSES

Richter doppel/Evil Richter:
(click to show/hide)
The uber- Count:
(click to show/hide)
Olrox:
(click to show/hide)
Shaft:
(click to show/hide)
Barlowe:
(click to show/hide)
Medusa:
(click to show/hide)
Dario Bossi:
(click to show/hide)
Death:
(click to show/hide)
Carmilla:
(click to show/hide)
Brauner:
(click to show/hide)
CHARACTERS:
Richter Good:
(click to show/hide)
Hammer:
(click to show/hide)
Sonia Belmont:
(click to show/hide)
Grant:
(click to show/hide)

Quote
Speaking of which, did you really approve Malphas's Hammer story? It seems rather silly and lighthearted to me.

Yeah, I did it years ago but I think it can be saved if edited a bit. Still, I thought that my take on Hammer's story should not be as serious as the others and focused more in Hammer's DoS "stupid shy guy" style. Hammer is so centered in her love for Yoko that he is uncapable of thinking too much about anything else. In spite of this, the other characters in his story are as serious as ever. If you have any suggestions to improve it I'll be glad to work on them, though. I should be editing it in a few days.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 12:39:55 AM by Malphas »

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2012, 04:53:13 PM »
0
I thought it was agreed apon that death is effectively from "everywhere", as there is only one death?
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 11:48:10 PM »
0
That was mostly copy-pasted from my old post, but I added the dimensional issues to fit better this thread. I fixed the rest, so Death's problem is corrected now.
Also... true, I read that long ago. Morrison said that it was decided in the old board but I should have asked him more about this, since it's a complicated issue to discuss. If Death a multidimensional deity (the only one and the same in all dimensions) then player death's existence would be pretty much absurd unless we come up with something to cover it. How can one oppose oneself?
Although, I think the trick perhaps would be in:

uber-Death wanting to follow the orders of it's Master VS player Death wanting to restore balance and at the same time questioning the ultimate goal of it's Lord (normal Drac)
uber-Death knows it's doing the wrong thing, it's like defying itself for the sake of it's Master. Still, uber-Death knows that balance must be restored and therefore player Death will be sent to confront uber-Death and solve it's inner conflict trough battle. A servant God fighting itself in a quest to solve the conflict between it's duty and it's friendship and also to understand that sometimes in order to serve your Lord you have to raise against him. Just by reading the summary sounds like the best story ever.

It still seems a bit complicated to me (maybe because I have been a bit off recently) can anyone explain this better?

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2012, 05:40:16 AM »
0
That was mostly copy-pasted from my old post, but I added the dimensional issues to fit better this thread. I fixed the rest, so Death's problem is corrected now.
Also... true, I read that long ago. Morrison said that it was decided in the old board but I should have asked him more about this, since it's a complicated issue to discuss. If Death a multidimensional deity (the only one and the same in all dimensions) then player death's existence would be pretty much absurd unless we come up with something to cover it. How can one oppose oneself?
Although, I think the trick perhaps would be in:

uber-Death wanting to follow the orders of it's Master VS player Death wanting to restore balance and at the same time questioning the ultimate goal of it's Lord (normal Drac)
uber-Death knows it's doing the wrong thing, it's like defying itself for the sake of it's Master. Still, uber-Death knows that balance must be restored and therefore player Death will be sent to confront uber-Death and solve it's inner conflict trough battle. A servant God fighting itself in a quest to solve the conflict between it's duty and it's friendship and also to understand that sometimes in order to serve your Lord you have to raise against him. Just by reading the summary sounds like the best story ever.

It still seems a bit complicated to me (maybe because I have been a bit off recently) can anyone explain this better?

It's actually quite easy to oppose onself--so easy, in fact, that we do it all the time and never even notice it or pay it much thought.  People switch between political parties, religious ideologies, business decisions, etc. at the drop of a hat, never once wondering what our past self would say about the way in which we just now decided to deviate from his or her path--because to us, in the third dimension, moving in a straight line through the fourth, the past is dead.  Non-accessible.  The older Democrat will never have to worry about what his younger Republican self thinks of his decision to turn Democrat, because the young Republican no longer exists for him. 

Death's conundrum requires a bit of fourth dimensional thinking...thinking like someone who doesn't exist in time and therefore exists (mostly) eternally.  If one exists eternally, how does one change?  Eternity as a concept carries a degree of finality.  Can one who exists eternally change?  If so, how can one who exists eternally change?

Let's talk about painting for a moment.

Let's say you painted a landscape.  A meadow.  Mountains in the background, whole nine yards.  You decide that it's missing something, so you add a mini-self portrait to the painting.  You step back and look at it again, deciding that the human element is just the element you needed.  But you don't like the clothes you're wearing in the painting for some reason.  So now you only have two options: scrap the painting or paint over yourself with a new set of clothes.  You opt for the latter, replacing the old painted version of you and replacing it with your new vision of yourself.

The painting is time itself, and you (the painter) are the abstract concept that is the personification of Death (in pure god form).  The first version of you in the painting is Boss Death.  The second version of you in the painting (the one that replaces the old) is Player Death.  The act of painting is roughly analogous to the fight between Boss Death and Player Death.  It's merely what happens when a being that by definition cannot change does change.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2012, 07:37:16 AM »
0
Great explanation! It really made it look simple ^^
Thanks.

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 02:58:43 PM »
0
Not all of them have been edited to fit the dimensional edit because right now I don't have time, but how abour Cyber keeps adding those characters whose story we have agreed with?

He will. I'm pretty sure that's why he made the thread.

Quote
Richter doppel/Evil Richter: He is the ultimate vampire hunter, the chosen one.
1- He could have been brought there by himself (SotN Richter before fighting Alucard is wandering castlevania and then BOOM! finds out that the castle has changed into the one in uber-Drac's dimension.

2-He could have been chosen by Aeon before you, which means that he is THE MAN and your character is just the second option.

I don't think it's ever been explicitly stated, but my understanding is that all the heroes are brought in by Aeon, and all the villains are brought in by Dracula in some way or another - so I don't think evil Richter would be brought in by Aeon. Plus, I'm pretty sure there will be two Richters, so it makes sense that they would each be brought in by different means, rather than both by Aeon.

Quote
Because he is obsessed with this final fight against Dracula to the point that he will not allow anyone to confront the Count until he becomes too strong for anyone to defeat... Also, evil Richter enjoys fighting strong opponents...

I think the focus for Richter is not that he wants to have the most epic battle of all time, but that he simply doesn't want to outlive his usefulness. Therefore, I think his motivation for fighting the intruders would be for the sake of job security rather than just because they're strong.

Quote
The uber- Count: He has never been defeated and now he is stronger than ever, so it's normal for him to be a very proud person who will see any hero merely as an entertainment before his decisive victory... If he is defeated, he will try to convince the other that the ultimate victory is his (kind of like a you have defeated me this time, but you haven't solved anything; your life is still pathetic and I will return, so you've just wasted your time)

This seems like a pretty good description to me - although, I don't think Dracula will ever come back with the extent of dimension-collapsing power that he has here, so I don't think he would say that after losing. I think it's more fitting for him to have some "closing comments" on the hero's goal/conflict. Such as, "Those ideals that you fight for really do give you strength..." Something to that effect.

Quote
Shaft is from uber-dimension. He is aware of what Dracula can do with time disruption and eager to make it happen. He is a total fanatic who wouldn't mind dying just for the sake of the plan, for he knows that if the Count succeeds everything will eventually perish. He wants the world to be purified with chaos and destruction as the Count becomes an undead God. Shaft is a very intelligent manipulative man and he may even try to corrupt the heroes with his mischievous words...
Interesting enemies: Richter...

It seems to me that it would be more fitting to have Shaft come from the main dimension. If he were from the uber-dimension, he would not know Richter at all - Richter would never have existed. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the reason he got involved with everything was that he was part of a cult that was trying to revive Dracula - if Dracula never died, that could never have happened. Of course, there's plenty of ways it could have happened differently in the uber-dimension (as we discussed with Brauner), but...

Quote
Medusa: Dimension and awareness of it it's irrelevant, but I go that she's unaware of the changes in Castlevania. She was once the most beautiful lady. Now that she has lost her charm is totally obsessed with beauty, since it was 'unfairly taken from her'... Sometimes, she will even offer the heroes to freely become a statue, to freeze the beauty of their forms for all eternity...
Interesting enemies: Any handsome character.

This may bear some discussion, to see if it's worth having Medusa conversations in the stories (since if one person does, everyone else must). While I have seen Medusa depicted in such a way that she makes statues in order to preserve their beauty for herself, I would prefer that she petrify people in order to spite them and their beauty.

With this being the video game series it is... I think every single character is going to fall into the handsome/beautiful category, except maybe the monster characters... and Mr. McDonald. Even Dracula is fairly handsome.

Quote
Carmilla: From uber-Drac's dimension, although I think it's irrelevant since she serves Dracula, no matter where. She is not aware of the dimensional rift. Carmilla is 'sexy and she knows it'. She is aware that no human can resist her charm and feels playful about it. Also, she will try to convince the heroes that it is too late for them and try to torment them more... Appart from her hatred towards werewolves, what is more remarkable about her is her devotion towards Dracula, the only one she admires and respects.
Interesting enemies: Death, because a skeleton with a tunic is more important for Dracula than she is.

I feel that making Carmilla overly sexy/seductive/charming will make her far too similar to the succubus/Astarte. We should focus more on her loyalty to Dracula, and her tendency to play on the fears of the hero to corrupt them. Thanks to CotM (where she gets just about all of her dialogue), I think of her as a villain more like Maleficent from Kingdom Hearts than someone like the succubus. Additionally, I don't think the hatred between vampires and werewolves really comes into play in the CV mythos (although I haven't played LoS yet, so maybe it comes up in that), and I also think Carmilla is smart enough to recognize why Death is so important.

Quote
Hammer:
Interesting enemy: evil Julius, because he always saw him as a rival for Yoko's heart and they might have lots of things to speak about.

I don't think there's going to be an evil Julius.

Quote
Sonia Belmont: She fights darkness and thinks it is her duty to defeat the Count as many times as necessary. However she has been expelled by the people she saved and her love is in an eternal slumber, so she feels a bit discouraged about her life in general. Nevertheless she still sees herself as the only one who can defeat Dracula and feels that it is her duty to use her power to fight darkness. When she has to completely destroy Alucard (in my story) she has lost basically everything and she can not bear it anymore: she decides to kill Dracula and seal it's powers forever, even at the cost of her life. She no longer cares if she lives or dies in the end, there is only that last thing to do for her.
Interesting enemy: evil Al.

I find myself a bit biased here - Legends is one of the few games I've never played, mostly because I didn't even know it existed back then. When I first found about it, people were already decrying it for its conflicts with the CV timeline and being removed from canon, so I really don't have any love for Sonia. So I can't really comment on how good this is. However, from what little I know... there's nothing to suggest that she was ostracized by the people. And I don't think there's going to be an "evil Alucard".

Quote
Yeah, I did it years ago but I think it can be saved if edited a bit. Still, I thought that my take on Hammer's story should not be as serious as the others and focused more in Hammer's DoS "stupid shy guy" style. Hammer is so centered in her love for Yoko that he is uncapable of thinking too much about anything else. In spite of this, the other characters in his story are as serious as ever. If you have any suggestions to improve it I'll be glad to work on them, though. I should be editing it in a few days.

I understand that he was like that in DoS, but I think we're trying to avoid that storytelling approach in this game. It's been stated before that CV Fighter is supposed to have a darker, serious feel to it all across the board (aside from Jonathan, I guess). It's possible to have him be shy but very much in love with Yoko, yet have the story be serious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 08:29:55 PM »
0
He will. I'm pretty sure that's why he made the thread.

Indeed. I've been busy with other stuff the last few days, but I'll get around to adding more bosses to the master summary once I'm certain we've all agreed on that particular interpretation of him/her/it. :/

I'm pretty sure there will be two Richters, so it makes sense that they would each be brought in by different means, rather than both by Aeon.

I think at this point that segregation of a player character from its boss version is to be expected (if applicable). This thread is meant for the bosses anyway. Player characters will be sorted by the person writing each character's story, in adherence to the meta ideas and guidelines in this sub-forum. :P

I think the focus for Richter is not that he wants to have the most epic battle of all time, but that he simply doesn't want to outlive his usefulness. Therefore, I think his motivation for fighting the intruders would be for the sake of job security rather than just because they're strong.

There has to be more reason behind his obsession with fighting forever than simply "for the lulz". I'm of the opinion that it stems from some of his fears and insecurities about being forgotten by the people. Simon and Trevor had the accolades of the common folk for slaying Dracula in their times, but by Richter's era, it's an expectation of the Belmonts. How does something like that weigh on one's mind? When your ancestors were praised for choosing what you're expected to do? When the two Richters meet, it'll be a rich opportunity for introspection. :]

It seems to me that it would be more fitting to have Shaft come from the main dimension. If he were from the uber-dimension, he would not know Richter at all - Richter would never have existed. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the reason he got involved with everything was that he was part of a cult that was trying to revive Dracula - if Dracula never died, that could never have happened. Of course, there's plenty of ways it could have happened differently in the uber-dimension (as we discussed with Brauner), but...

How does Shaft end up in the Uber Dimension then, considering he's dead at more times then I care to count? I suppose the only logical explanation would be that he has more of those orbs hidden away acting as phylacteries for his soul (essentially equating him to a D&D Lich, although we shouldn't explicitly imply/mention that). Without a physical form, perhaps he wanders the aether and happens upon Uber Drac's realm, where the nigh immortal count grants him a body again in exchange for his services? :x

This may bear some discussion, to see if it's worth having Medusa conversations in the stories (since if one person does, everyone else must). While I have seen Medusa depicted in such a way that she makes statues in order to preserve their beauty for herself, I would prefer that she petrify people in order to spite them and their beauty.

With this being the video game series it is... I think every single character is going to fall into the handsome/beautiful category, except maybe the monster characters... and Mr. McDonald. Even Dracula is fairly handsome.

Serio hasn't given her story code yet. On the one hand, she's one of the five original bosses, but on the other, she's never had any particularly involved speaking roles, outside of LoI (which, even then, was sparse at best). I suppose this'll be something to mull over in the coming days? :x

I feel that making Carmilla overly sexy/seductive/charming will make her far too similar to the succubus/Astarte. We should focus more on her loyalty to Dracula, and her tendency to play on the fears of the hero to corrupt them. Thanks to CotM (where she gets just about all of her dialogue), I think of her as a villain more like Maleficent from Kingdom Hearts than someone like the succubus. Additionally, I don't think the hatred between vampires and werewolves really comes into play in the CV mythos (although I haven't played LoS yet, so maybe it comes up in that), and I also think Carmilla is smart enough to recognize why Death is so important.

It does come up in LoS, and it's not to be a part of this game's story. The only shades of that continuity you can safely expect will be Gabriel, and Gabriel alone. Regarding Carmilla proper, about the only thing we have to go on for her personality is CotM and Judgment, so we'll have to make do using those as a basis, moreso Judgment. :/

I find myself a bit biased here - Legends is one of the few games I've never played, mostly because I didn't even know it existed back then. When I first found about it, people were already decrying it for its conflicts with the CV timeline and being removed from canon, so I really don't have any love for Sonia. So I can't really comment on how good this is. However, from what little I know... there's nothing to suggest that she was ostracized by the people. And I don't think there's going to be an "evil Alucard".

Oh, I have $67.01 USD invested in hating Sonia. ;P

She's ostracized according to the ending of the game when she's defeated Dracula and gets thrown out because SHE'S A WITCH. Dx

Sonia Belmont: She fights darkness and thinks it is her duty to defeat the Count as many times as necessary. However she has been expelled by the people she saved and her love is in an eternal slumber, so she feels a bit discouraged about her life in general. Nevertheless she still sees herself as the only one who can defeat Dracula and feels that it is her duty to use her power to fight darkness. When she has to completely destroy Alucard (in my story) she has lost basically everything and she can not bear it anymore: she decides to kill Dracula and seal it's powers forever, even at the cost of her life. She no longer cares if she lives or dies in the end, there is only that last thing to do for her.

No, she's not going to do by herself what took Julius and a bajillion people helping him to accomplish, especially against Uber Drac. I already did a lot of pruning to the story, Mal, don't make me bring out the gardening shears to start removing chunks. >:/

I understand that he was like that in DoS, but I think we're trying to avoid that storytelling approach in this game. It's been stated before that CV Fighter is supposed to have a darker, serious feel to it all across the board (aside from Jonathan, I guess). It's possible to have him be shy but very much in love with Yoko, yet have the story be serious. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I had an idea where Malphas could focus instead on Hammer's worthiness as a soldier, considering he abandoned his mission in AoS to open a shop of all things. His plot could address whether or not he has the will to carry out his duty. Yoko should not be the primary motivation, because even if I ever accept it (in a drunken stupor, likely), Fou won't. >_>
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 09:07:10 PM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 09:40:50 PM »
0
About the uber-count... I think he should do as you say with heroes that he respects but I really like the idea of "Drac being so evil and smart that he doesn't care if you beat him" just like Rondo of Blood Drac, he is friggin burning and when he dies he goes away laughing... laughing! That's just badass!

By the way.. remember the Necromancer of CoTM? Doesn't it look a bit like Shaft's Ghost? I just had an idea... what if Shaft can not really die because his soul was absorbed by castlevania as well? He is a powerful magus/Dark priest and also a smart guy so his spirit would manage to survive like that. I think we could give him a MAJOR role in this game since he is capable of doing evil cunning plans against his enemies.

Here is where it gets weird:
(click to show/hide)

About Sonia (lol, I thought nobody actually read it, thanks Cyber ;_;)  I wanted to make it look as if it wasn't Sonia who had the power to destroy Drac, but the Vampire Killer. In lament of Innocence, it seemed to grow stronger when the user focused hate+dead vampires' souls so in uber-dimension and after everything Sonia loses I think the whip has all the ingredients it needs to become an "uber-Vampire Killer"

Still, I can make the same as I did with Grant. Dracula grows so powerful that his soul becomes free of the bonds of time and the crimson stone no longer affects him, for he is becoming a God. During Serio's castlevania, however, he is still not powerful enough to become a Godlike being, so when he dies he is actually killed forever and ever. I think I should have written about that on the other threads, my bad.
Now seriously, this is one complicated issue. If he is the STRONGEST Dracula ever and will just come back some day then will the dimensional thing have to be repeated ever and ever? I think there should be a way in which Drac is completely destroyed at the end of this game and a good explanation for it, if we can make it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:04:30 PM by Malphas »

Offline s̻͔̦͔e̫̣̹͕r̤̗̤̥͔i͎̪̳̺̜o̰̜͓̫̺͖

  • administrator
  • chaotic member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
  • no personal text here.
  • Respect: +67
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 10:30:23 PM »
0
Quote
Dracula grants shaft his body back as a reward for helping him in his revenge against the Belmont clan.
this part doesn't work. the uber dracula doesn't have any need for revenge against belmonts since he never lost to them, and if he found out it was because of shaft that lisa and alucard died, he'd most likely destroy him, not reward him.

lol

Quote
Serio hasn't given her story code yet.
the recent story code cleanup/recode was to standarize everyone. this means, everyone, including her (and even the cerberus, lol) has it available, just not enabled by default.

that and if i enable her, everyone'll have to include her in their stories.

maybe sometime in the future i'll add something to each character vs each boss, so that each character'll have a "can have story vs dario" or "can have story vs richter" option, which, if absent, will make the character/boss skip the story.

fortunately with the animation detection trick i can have as many of those as i want. they are a constant value and can only work as a 0/1 (meaning, yeah or nope. can do or can't. if animation exists it means it's true, if it doesn't it means false), but that's more than enough for this.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 10:41:00 PM by serio »
Dracula was here

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 10:44:35 PM »
0
There has to be more reason behind his obsession with fighting forever than simply "for the lulz". I'm of the opinion that it stems from some of his fears and insecurities about being forgotten by the people. Simon and Trevor had the accolades of the common folk for slaying Dracula in their times, but by Richter's era, it's an expectation of the Belmonts. How does something like that weigh on one's mind? When your ancestors were praised for choosing what you're expected to do? When the two Richters meet, it'll be a rich opportunity for introspection. :]

You put it better than I could. Thank you.

Quote
How does Shaft end up in the Uber Dimension then, considering he's dead at more times then I care to count? I suppose the only logical explanation would be that he has more of those orbs hidden away acting as phylacteries for his soul (essentially equating him to a D&D Lich, although we shouldn't explicitly imply/mention that). Without a physical form, perhaps he wanders the aether and happens upon Uber Drac's realm, where the nigh immortal count grants him a body again in exchange for his services? :x

For that matter, how does anyone get there? I'm not super clear on that. Is uber Drac making a conscious effort to drag them in, or do they just pop in as a result of all the chaotic dimension-ripping? That aside, I'd say he either has a way of continuing to preserve his soul, or perhaps he was taken from a time period before he was defeated by Alucard but after he controlled Richter.

Quote
Serio hasn't given her story code yet. On the one hand, she's one of the five original bosses, but on the other, she's never had any particularly involved speaking roles, outside of LoI (which, even then, was sparse at best). I suppose this'll be something to mull over in the coming days? :x

Honestly, I'm finding it hard enough to write for some of the other non-talking people like Abbadon and Balore. I think it would be fine if we left her out.

Quote
It does come up in LoS, and it's not to be a part of this game's story. The only shades of that continuity you can safely expect will be Gabriel, and Gabriel alone. Regarding Carmilla proper, about the only thing we have to go on for her personality is CotM and Judgment, so we'll have to make do using those as a basis, moreso Judgment. :/

Hm. When I was talking with Morrison months earlier, he said it was likely that we would disregard a lot of the Judgment characterization for Carmilla, since it makes her too similar to the succubus (with her seductiveness) and Bartley (with her sadism). So I figured it would be based primarily on CotM.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2012, 10:48:55 PM »
0
True, it's not exactly revenge (wrong word choice >_>) but it's defeating his oldest enemy. Mathias and the Belmont clan are enemies since the times of Leon so it's natural that Dracula would be pleased if the Belmont clan was no longer a threat.
Also, Shaft wishes to purify the world in the forges of Chaos, not to serve Dracula. Shaft doesn't even have to plan much of Alucard's murder, he just needs to make sure that Al is on the right place on the right moment and an angry mob will eventually kill him. If he was to plan Alucard's "accidental" death he would be sure that Dracula doesn't notice that he actually planned to murder his son. It seems a bit like Game of Thrones meets Castlevania but I personally like this idea.
The thing that seems more off to me is the fact that Shaft regains his body, which is rotting 500 years in the future and in another dimension...

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2012, 09:54:10 PM »
0
For that matter, how does anyone get there? I'm not super clear on that. Is uber Drac making a conscious effort to drag them in, or do they just pop in as a result of all the chaotic dimension-ripping? That aside, I'd say he either has a way of continuing to preserve his soul, or perhaps he was taken from a time period before he was defeated by Alucard but after he controlled Richter.

If death in the dream realm sets the Succubus' soul wandering for eternity, could a similar idea not be applied to Shaft? When his last phylactery/orb is destroyed by Alucard in SotN, his spirit is set adrift between the timelines, whereupon he ends up at Uber Drac's timeline. The rest could plausibly follow from what I posted previously at that point. :x

Hm. When I was talking with Morrison months earlier, he said it was likely that we would disregard a lot of the Judgment characterization for Carmilla, since it makes her too similar to the succubus (with her seductiveness) and Bartley (with her sadism). So I figured it would be based primarily on CotM.

I think this is a case of either or being acceptable; I mention Judgment mostly because IGA fancies it to be a canonical representation of each character's personality (at that age, in Eric's case). Though, as Morrison would probably say, know what to keep, and what to throw out. :P

Also, Shaft wishes to purify the world in the forges of Chaos, not to serve Dracula.


OT: Regarding timely updates to this thread, my net has been dying sporadically as of recently, so any updates may be a bit slower than I'd first anticipated. Doesn't help I'm playing Lufia DS right now either. >_>
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 10:03:49 PM by (yber])ragon10]{ »
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2012, 10:26:29 PM »
0
What? It's actually true. Shaft serves Dracula BECAUSE he can bring chaos to the world and despite he admires Drac in a way I think Shaft would not hesitate on preparing any plots against his "Master" in order to make him focus a bit more on the destruction thing instead of in raising a lovely family. Alucard and Lisa both empower Drac's human side so they are Shaft's enemies, even if Drac would never allow Shaft to raise a hand against them he would destroy them if he had the chance.

Shaft doesn't even need any complicated plot since he only has to make sure that Alucard and Lisa are together when she is killed (or just to make sure that the mob is angry enough to also kill young Al)
Dracula's hatred would go towards humanity so he would be too blind by rage to even notice Shaft was behind Al's death.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2012, 12:05:26 AM »
0
What? It's actually true. Shaft serves Dracula BECAUSE he can bring chaos to the world and despite he admires Drac in a way I think Shaft would not hesitate on preparing any plots against his "Master" in order to make him focus a bit more on the destruction thing instead of in raising a lovely family. Alucard and Lisa both empower Drac's human side so they are Shaft's enemies, even if Drac would never allow Shaft to raise a hand against them he would destroy them if he had the chance.

Shaft doesn't even need any complicated plot since he only has to make sure that Alucard and Lisa are together when she is killed (or just to make sure that the mob is angry enough to also kill young Al)
Dracula's hatred would go towards humanity so he would be too blind by rage to even notice Shaft was behind Al's death.

I don't like this fanfiction. Pure and simple. It downplays the idea of choice that Morrison's expanded premise works off of, making Uber Drac a rabid dog that Shaft decided to point in any random direction, instead of the credible threat that he is through choosing to wage war on humanity, conquering his world, and threatening the stability of the CV universe through his steadily increasing power. Olrox is already the conniving backstabber, so you have no excuse beyond fanciful theories/extrapolation to be positing this anyway. :/

And don't bring up how Dracula is a slave to chaos either; that, also, is stupid, because it again spits on the idea of choice that these stories are to revolve around. >_>

(click to show/hide)

Nothing about the above ever suggests that Shaft would prioritize serving "chaos" over Dracula. In fact, Shaft reveres him quite obviously, especially in DXC RoB, where he calls Dracula "Lord Count" in the pre-Stage 6 cutscene. Using either or would've been fine, but the localization chose to use both to make a point. :P
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 01:34:42 AM »
0
My problem with Shaft possessing Uber-Dracula is that, in the posited scenario, everyone becomes a pawn in Shaft's bid for power.  While I don't deny that it would be an interesting sub-story (something akin almost to the Doctor Who Unbound audio drama entitled "He Jests At Scars..."), I don't think it fits with the overall plan for this game.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2012, 03:15:24 AM »
0
Quote
Olrox is already the conniving backstabber
BUT Olrox wants power for himself to be the star of the show, Shaft wants Dracula to be in power and respects him because he has decided to use that power to create absolute chaos. Nevertheless, Dracula is the ultimate boss and I agree that it would not be so impressive if he just was left as someone's puppet.

Quote
I vow to guide this world into destruction and chaos.
Everyone in life wants something and except true friends like Death people tend to row in their own direction. Shaft has the same goal as Dracula, but should Dracula move away from that goal then Shaft would need to do something or else their whole association would become useless. Still, with this I'm just trying to figure out why would Shaft help Dracula and looking for alternatives.

But going back simply to Shaft's dimension:

Shaft's body, dimension and "journey":
(click to show/hide)

Shaft's purpose:
(click to show/hide)

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 03:31:04 AM »
0
Shaft would likely help Dracula because he's a fanatic, the psychology behind which is very complicated.  It's something we actually see in our reality everyday--from the whackos who believe in Hubbard's Scientology to the compounds of Mormon child molesters who occupy the desert states of the United States.  Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Heaven's Gate Cult.

Shaft simply does what he does because Dracula is someone who can and will tell him it's okay to be a killer, a rapist, a monster--that it's okay to give into the predatory side of humanity, the animal within us all...that it's okay to fall into the hole in human existence, the void, the emptiness inside us all, and to never come out.  In Shaft's mind, Dracula justifies his dark predilections.  That's how fanatics operate.  They only want someone to justify their monstrous actions, to legitimize their deviant tendencies.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2012, 12:17:09 AM »
0
... true friends like Death...

I hope you realize that acknowledging in-fandom jokes is the worst thing that a game in a franchise (fan or otherwise) can do. Remember how everyone joked about how useless Dracula was because he'd failed to destroy the world even thought he was revived so many times? Remember how not funny it was when Brauner out and said the same thing as his motivation in PoR? >_>

... Yeah. :P
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2012, 03:03:59 AM »
0
Quote
I hope you realize that acknowledging in-fandom jokes is the worst thing that a game in a franchise (fan or otherwise) can do. Remember how everyone joked about how useless Dracula was because he'd failed to destroy the world even thought he was revived so many times? Remember how not funny it was when Brauner out and said the same thing as his motivation in PoR? >_>
I think we said about "our" canon that Death has been ALWAYS on Dracula's side and even when it fights against Dracula it does it to serve it's Lord. You can call it true friend, mindless minion or faithful guy who works for free. Death is a God, what can Dracula offer Death to make it serve him?

Fandom jokes aside I think Death and Dracula have a relationship similar to friendship, in a way, and even in judgement (not the best example but Castlevania game after all) has been suggested that Death serves Dracula for that reason (it's one of the possible interpretations even though it can be considered adaptation of the "fandom-joke-thing" to the game) I don't think is such a terrible idea if developed properly; let's say Death happens to like the fact that Dracula defies God and fights to destroy the multiverse by himself... and even has a chance to succeed! I say Death started serving Dracula out of curiosity, to see how far Drac could go, but then it happened to get attached to him in an almost friend-like behavior (or samurai-like)


Besides that, I was simply explaining that people tend to go on their own, especially if they have power. No matter how bad the "joke" is I do hope you get my point on that part.

Quote
Shaft would likely help Dracula because he's a fanatic, the psychology behind which is very complicated.

Thanks, got it, I will try to make Shaft more fanatic.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 01:50:45 AM by Malphas »

Offline Fou-Lu

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +2
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 03:39:37 AM »
0
Death serves the Dark Lord, using the Crimson stone as a sort of contract.  It does not actually matter who the Dark Lord is.

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 07:43:46 AM »
0
I think we said about "our" canon that Death has been ALWAYS on Dracula's side and even when it fights against Dracula it does it to serve it's Lord. You can call it true friend, mindless minion or faithful guy who works for free. Death is a God, what can Dracula offer Death to make it serve him?

Fandom jokes aside I think Death and Dracula have a relationship similar to frienship, in a way, and even in judgement (not the best example but Castlevania game after all) has been suggested that Death serves Dracula for that reason (it's one of the possible interpretations even though it can be considered adaptation of the "fandom-joke-thing" to the game) I don't think is such a terrible idea if developed properly; let's say Death happens to like the fact that Dracula defies God and fights to destroy the multiverse by himself... and even has a chance to succeed! I say Death started serving Dracula out of curiosity, to see how far Drac could go, but then it happened to get attached to him in an almost friend-like behavior (or samurai-like)


Besides that, I was simply explaining that people tend to go on their own, especially if they have power. No matter how bad the "joke" is I do hope you get my point on that part.

Thanks, got it, I will try to make Shaft more fanatic.

Death serves the Dark Lord, using the Crimson stone as a sort of contract.  It does not actually matter who the Dark Lord is.

Yeah...in ancient myth, legend, and folklore, supernatural beings who were a lot more powerful than regular humans were governed by some pretty bizarre rules that rendered them powerless and subservient if a mortal met certain conditions.  Hell, even the Superman villain Mr. Mxyzptlk utilizes this motif to a degree--the fifth-dimensional mischief maker can turn our reality inside-out and upside-down, but if he's tricked into saying his name backwards, he's banned from our dimension for a period of time.  When put under a microscope, it seems really backwards that a mere mortal--undead or otherwise--should be able to have control over a being that exists on a higher plane.  I mean, it's not enough that Dracula's a vampire and, as such, has attained a degree of immortality.  No, he has to assert a little control over the physical embodiment of a force of nature, as well.  That said, that's kind of the cool thing about the Dracula/Death dynamic: it's an inversion of the natural order. 

That said, Fou's view of the Crimson Stone as a sort of contract is right on the money, IMO.  It's just one of those things that has no escape clause for Death.  Now, whether he likes being in Dracula's army or not is up to interpretation...I think that Castlevania has taken pains to show that Death is one of Dracula's more loyal generals, likely because he's unencumbered by a desire for Dracula's power (like, say, Olrox or Galamoth might be).  Whether or not the two are "friends", I can't say with any certainty.  Death certainly has a healthy respect for Dracula, but I'm not sure it's a two-way street.  Then again, we've seen very little interaction between them to know for sure.

As for Shaft, yeah, definitely fanatic.  He's loyal for a different reason than Death.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2012, 06:34:04 PM »
0
Someone around here said that Shaft looks "Ghostly" on SotN, and that he was killed by Richter on RoB, implying that the SotN Shaft is in fact his orbs playing their master as happened in RoB when Richter faced Ghost Shaft.

I say that he is not a ghost nor an illusion created by the orbs. He is the real deal. Just notice how the translucent Shaft floats towards the center of the giant orb thing where his silhouette is ALREADY positioned, sitting on a "trance" state. This translucent Shaft is actually his Mental Projection. It is his mind avatar appearing in front of Alucard as, it seems, that Shaft himself cannot lose control over the ritual he is carrying over to ressurrect Dracula. It is like he is multitasking and just separated a small fraction of his mind to talk to Alucard and gain enough time to finish the ritual.

So, what happened in RoB? I actually think that Richter never fought the TRUE Shaft. It was a Doombot Gambit. In SotN we see that Richter has been taken control over by Shaft. How did that happen?? It happened when he destroyed the fake one in RoB. Also, we see that upon his defeat in RoB, Shaft "vanishes". We never see him staying dead there, bleeding or exploding or even bursting in flames. He just VANISHES. What if in fact Richter fought another of his mind avatars and Shaft used this, knowing beforehand that he couldn't ever defeat Richter, thus deciding to take control of his mind?

So yeah, I think that Shaft died for real at Alucard's hands (Also, I think that the final piece to bring Dracula back is a sacrifice, and by killing Shaft, Alucard unknowingly finished the ritual, but it's just me being an epiletic tree).

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2012, 10:31:53 PM »
0
Someone around here said that Shaft looks "Ghostly" on SotN, and that he was killed by Richter on RoB, implying that the SotN Shaft is in fact his orbs playing their master as happened in RoB when Richter faced Ghost Shaft.

I say that he is not a ghost nor an illusion created by the orbs. He is the real deal. Just notice how the translucent Shaft floats towards the center of the giant orb thing where his silhouette is ALREADY positioned, sitting on a "trance" state. This translucent Shaft is actually his Mental Projection. It is his mind avatar appearing in front of Alucard as, it seems, that Shaft himself cannot lose control over the ritual he is carrying over to ressurrect Dracula. It is like he is multitasking and just separated a small fraction of his mind to talk to Alucard and gain enough time to finish the ritual.

So, what happened in RoB? I actually think that Richter never fought the TRUE Shaft. It was a Doombot Gambit. In SotN we see that Richter has been taken control over by Shaft. How did that happen?? It happened when he destroyed the fake one in RoB. Also, we see that upon his defeat in RoB, Shaft "vanishes". We never see him staying dead there, bleeding or exploding or even bursting in flames. He just VANISHES. What if in fact Richter fought another of his mind avatars and Shaft used this, knowing beforehand that he couldn't ever defeat Richter, thus deciding to take control of his mind?

So yeah, I think that Shaft died for real at Alucard's hands (Also, I think that the final piece to bring Dracula back is a sacrifice, and by killing Shaft, Alucard unknowingly finished the ritual, but it's just me being an epiletic tree).

You know what?  I really like that explanation.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2012, 11:13:48 PM »
0
Oh thank you ^^
I did not elaborate in it enough, because I though it would become too long to read.
but I REALLY want to contribute with the storyline. Is there something unwritten in which I could give my word..??

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 11:23:49 PM »
0
Two words: Mind Blown. I like it too. It kind of gives the feeling that Shaft has always a hidden ace somewhere.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 11:39:40 PM »
0
Also, I've been reading about Death - Dracula relation and what makes Death be Dracula's servant.

Sometime ago, I wrote a story about the final battle between Dracula and Julius (Which would become a manga, which I still have the starting drawings, but never came to be.)
There, I tried to explain why Dracula was always reborn and what part on his plan Death plays, and from where all his minions come and how the castle came to be.

Essentially, Dracula has Death under his control through the Crimson Stone, which was never seen again. The Crimson Stone's apparent power is to trap souls inside so it powers up it's master (That being Dracula). So, where is the Crimson Stone and why was it never mentioned again.

It was NEVER gone. Dracula used the stone's raw power and from it created Castlevania itself. The Crimson Stone IS the Castle, a giant soul trap that enslaves the souls of everyone who steps inside it (Which would explain why so many normal characters from the official game become madly evil after entering the castle. Dracula's "influence" is in fact the power of the stone serving it's master). But there's a limit to it though. Only the souls of non-magical beings are trapped there, to be reused as minions to Dracula. That's why no hero from the official games were affected by it's influence (Charlotte herself explains the Castle's influence over non-magical beings.). However, the Belmonts ARE mortal and non-magical beings, so why they weren't affected? They weren't because they had the magical whip on their possession which briefly protected them against the Castle's control. However, it only lasted while the whip was under their possession.

Dracula's plan all along was to, eventually, use the Belmont's souls trapped inside the Castle to ressurrect himself more powerful each time. Their souls were binded to the Crimson Stone's power since they first set foot inside the Castle, but it's power was unable to grasp their souls at the moment because they had the whip on their possession, however, as soon as they passed the whip ahead and/or died, their soul would be promptly collected by the Stone/Castle, giving meaning to the effect of Death's contract with Dracula to power up Dracula's next ressurrection.

AGAIN note that it's part of the fanfiction I wrote. I am posting it here because, maybe, something from it can be used!

Then, Death serves Dracula because the Stone was never gone, and was used to create the Castle itself all along. On my fanfiction, Death's job was, specifically, to keep the souls of the Belmonts trapped inside the Clock Tower (Hence why Death is almost always found there, and hence why he is Dracula's right hand man and HENCE why he is able to ressurrect Dracula. He uses Belmont souls to do it.). Julius, on the fic, would eventually learn of this when fighting Death, and would free his ancestor's souls, gaining their power for himself and being able to kick Drac's butt to oblivion with every Belmont's power.

So, all in all, my theory is that Dracula's Castle was made using the Crimson Stone as a giant soul trap. Death's job is to use these souls to bring him back, and he serves Dracula because the stone was never gone, and thus, the contract persists.

There is some "plot holes" but because I did not explain EVERYTHING. I believe this is enough to give an idea of what I think on their relationship.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:50:05 PM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »
0
When you're explaining something to me, you'll want to eliminate as many plot holes as you can--because those are what I'll notice first. 

With the Shaft explanation, you expanded upon evidence that existed within RoB and SotN.  With the Crimson Stone explanation, you seem to have less evidence to support it.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2012, 12:29:04 AM »
0
Okay soooo here we go...

Initially I though "Why the Crimson Stone is never mentioned again...?"
Obviously, it could not be "explained" because Lament of Innocence came way after the series had established itself and the Stone was not even been mentioned before LoI. So I though "Wait... Walter was the Lord of his own Castle... He had minions and such and he had the Ebony Stone under it's power...". That game explains that to a vampire to be the absolute most powerful, he needs to have either Crimson, Ebony, or both stones. So I though "Maybe, Dracula did something else with the Stone... For him to become so powerful, he must have used the stone to something important. Also... Where did Dracula's Castle come from...?" Well, his castle may have been a common manor. He simply gathered wealth and bought one, but, we learned that Drac has a true, demonic castle, which was described as "a creature of chaos" and that "Dracula obtained it through a pact with the Devil" or that the Castle IS a demon itself. Dracula has the Power of Dominance, which allows him to control the souls of his enemies, but where did this power come from...? What is the power of the Crimson Stone, again? Yeah, his "Dominance" may have come from the Stone, but it was done in a more ingenious way. Dracula could not go and start "dominancing" every man that happened to stumble on his path, and, maybe, Walter's soul took quite a large part of the stone's power, seeing as it was enough to turn Mathias into a complete vampire Dark Lord. So, Dracula was already bound to the stone, but to grow ever more powerful, he needed more souls. My theory is that Dracula used the Crimson Stone to build the demon castle, so he could expand his power of dominance as Walter soul was now part of himself (He "cloaks" Walter on himself, just as he "cloaked" himself on Isaac Laforeze to be embodied again. What keeps him not becoming another Walter is his binding with the stone, which keeps Walter's essence in check but his vampire power at Mathias's disposal forever).

So, we do too know that Julius defeated Dracula by separating him from the Castle (Maybe, through the learning of Charlotte Aulin on Brauner's painting technique). Dracula could only be separated from his ressurrecting cycle if he was separated from the thing that kept him ressurrecting. The Crimson Stone feeds him souls so he can come back. Julius separated him from the Castle. So, if Dracula is separated from one of these itens he isn't able to come back, and one of these itens is gone and either one of them was never seen together with the other, at the same time. So, I highly believe that the Crimson Stone, or whatever it is made of, was used to build the Castle, because it seems to be the main thing that can bring back Dracula from the dead.

One more thing the enforces my theory is that, apparently, Dracula comes back in times of desperation for mankind (as many a game estated). These times are, coincidentally, bound to have a ton of deaths, and a ton of stray souls for the Crimson/Castle to collect and reemerge so Dracula has a "home" to reawake in. And Death is the Stone/Castle's "Hands" to do it, to collect those souls. Although Death is "dead" by the end of each game, his "Death effect" persists. And, curiously, we see that almost always, Death is awake BEFORE Dracula, implying that his job is to bring Dracula back by taking souls to the Stone/Castle through the contract he has with Dracula.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:38:09 AM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »
0
Quote
My theory is that Dracula used the Crimson Stone to build the demon castle, so he could expand his power of dominance as Walter soul was now part of himself (He "cloaks" Walter on himself, just as he "cloaked" himself on Isaac Laforeze to be embodied again. What keeps him not becoming another Walter is his binding with the stone, which keeps Walter's essence in check but his vampire power at Mathias's disposal forever).

I like to see it as a struggle between wills. The strongest will prevails, the weak is absorbed and when things are really balanced then the strongest still prevails, but inherits some of the traits of the other.

But with Isaac and Hector is not quite the same. Isaac already has a part of Dracula within so his soul will inevitably lose the willpower struggle with little to no chance to fight back (and that, my friends, is what happens when you don't read all the terms and conditions!)
I always thought that Isaac and Hector had been trained to become not only "two powerful generals", but also Dracula's extra lives, which would allow him to return earlier and give the Belmonts a happy surprise. Hector manages to break free from Dracula's curse by renouncing his ties with Dracula and thus, even when he regains them Isaac is a much better vessel than him (and still, Hector was close to become Drac)

As for the Demon Castle I think it's actually created from the Crimson Stone, if not another form of the stone itself, and absorbs the soul of any person who dies in there (and finally, according to IGA, those souls are transformed into candles, lol)

Mod Edit: Can't read anything if you're doing quoteception. :P
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 01:12:01 AM by (yber])ragon10]{ »

Offline The_Debugger

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
  • Thats a niccccccceee life you got there... sssssss
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2012, 10:16:31 PM »
0


I like to see it as a struggle between wills. The strongest will prevails, the weak is absorbed and when things are really balanced then the strongest still prevails, but inherits some of the traits of the other.

But with Isaac and Hector is not quite the same. Isaac already has a part of Dracula within so his soul will inevitably lose the willpower struggle with little to no chance to fight back (and that, my friends, is what happens when you don't read all the terms and conditions!)
I always thought that Isaac and Hector had been trained to become not only "two powerful generals", but also Dracula's extra lives, which would allow him to return earlier and give the Belmonts a happy surprise. Hector manages to break free from Dracula's curse by renouncing his ties with Dracula and thus, even when he regains them Isaac is a much better vessel than him (and still, Hector was close to become Drac)

As for the Demon Castle I think it's actually created from the Crimson Stone, if not another form of the stone itself, and absorbs the soul of any person who dies in there (and finally, according to IGA, those souls are transformed into candles, lol)

So that is why some people serve Dracula at all?

If he kills you you are doomed to be a candle forever? Or the castle itself transforms you into some kind of slave?

However i now understand why some people want to serve him instead opposing him cause if he kills you or the castle, well you face a destiny worst than death, so that is why if they get bitten by a vampire, werewolf, cursed, possesed , best surrender before you pass into something worster i believe.

Unless you are planning if they believe you will join them you can backstab them at that time you acquired more power like Cornell, Joachim, Alucard, Hector and many others hoped so they could defeat Dracula with his own share of power.

Steam profile: =A0G= The Forgotten One
Currently at university
Will do any kind of job for something that is not money
P.D. Fuck Death chain attacks

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2012, 01:14:56 AM »
0
Lack of evidence, lack of citation, and a whole heapful of fan fiction? I don't buy this whole crimson stone = castle thing, and you're going to need a whole lot more to convince me than a simple theory. :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2012, 01:51:23 AM »
0
I though it was clear that it was MY thing and I was using my theory just so people could read on it. It is just a theory man, nothing to really read on. Only a matter of inspiration, nothing more.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2012, 07:10:23 AM »
0
I though it was clear that it was MY thing and I was using my theory just so people could read on it. It is just a theory man, nothing to really read on. Only a matter of inspiration, nothing more.

Well, considering how well thought out and good your Shaft explanation was, you can imagine my disappointment when I go over that crimson stone thing and am not as convinced by it. :P

If you're simply "throwing it out there", say no more. :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2012, 07:19:06 AM »
0
Oh man, you see... That Crimson Stone thing is part of a fanfic of mine (Which you so cleverly pointed out xP). It has, in fact, all of an mythology behind it to support this theory, but only inside this fic. There isn't really any fact proving this on the Castlevania canon, really :\

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2012, 07:47:55 AM »
0
What about Iga saying that the souls of the dead turn into candles? lol
(WARNING: JUST KIDDING)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 06:08:56 AM by Malphas »

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2012, 07:51:32 AM »
0
Well, I had though about that way before IGA said this XD
I always though that the Hearts were the willpower of the dead giving the Belmonts strenght to fight on.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:01:46 AM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2013, 10:31:05 AM »
0
Okay so I'm pretty much bumping a dead thread, and sorry about that.

I found something about Shaft that I'm kinda disappointed that no one in the internet pointed out (as far as my googling goes), and questions about "How Shaft came to control Richter" were made, when the question was answered so clearly.
Recently, I've got the oportunity to play Dracula X Chronicles for the very first time, and Stage 4 answered this question. Since I never spoiled myself about the game, I was quite surprised with this.

Jump to 5:30 and watch as Richter pulmels Carmilla into extinction, and after this, watch what happens:

If that wasn't a "Shaft infected" orb, and Richter falling right into the trap by collecting it, then I have no idea what was the point with that.
This leads me to think, again, that Richter never even met Shaft in person after all, and the two boss battles against him were nothing more than illusions made by the real Shaft using that infected orb. Maybe he knew he could never best a Belmont in battle (He implies this when talking with Alucard on SotN, saying that Richter is unbeatable), or maybe he knew Dracula was indeed going to be defeated again, or maybe both. In the end, this only shows that Shaft had "second" plans all along. (Of course this game came way after SotN, and the developers simply tried to explain this little tidbit of info through this).

I don't know if someone will even need this info anymore, but, seeing as I found nothing on this absolutelly nowhere, this might come in handy to someone.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:36:37 AM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline Cassie

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • Wasshoi'ed!
  • Respect: +2
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2013, 11:34:18 AM »
0
That's very interesting! I think this makes Richter's brainwashing in SOTN have 100% more sense in retrospect. By having Richter get a hold of something Shaft made as a trap, Shaft did two things: removing Richter as a threat, AND controlling Richter's warrior tendencies.
Some people prefer leather whips, some prefer metal chains. Me? Just swords. Whips are the least effective weapons against evil in plausibility scales.

Offline SomaCruz1998

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
  • Your friendly neighbourhood weaboo.
  • Respect: +4
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2013, 07:31:45 PM »
0
Guys. I may be one big slowpoke up here but this is what I think of Dracula-Death 'friendship'.
Possibly Dracula is immune to physical death via souls/Crimson Stone/Vampire powers and that gives him an ability to summon a familiar called simply Grim Ripper. In SotN Alucard had quite a long relationship and story behind his familiars. Especially with Sword and Fairy.
And possibly Dracula and Death became 'friends' in the same way.
Please go easy on me...
That feeling you get, when you've just beaten Death Boss Rush in Bloodlines with no damage and no subs... Yes... That feeling...

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2013, 11:56:41 PM »
0
Okay so I'm pretty much bumping a dead thread, and sorry about that.

That's not a problem, you've actually reminded me that I need to work on this whenever I can. ^^;;

If that wasn't a "Shaft infected" orb, and Richter falling right into the trap by collecting it, then I have no idea what was the point with that.

That was in the original RoB as well. During a first play through, if you defeat Carmilla before you've cleared the pirate ship level and defeated Death, he/it will appear during that particular orb sequence and force your progression to Stage 5 (instead of Stage 5'). :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2013, 02:38:29 AM »
0
That was in the original RoB as well. During a first play through, if you defeat Carmilla before you've cleared the pirate ship level and defeated Death, he/it will appear during that particular orb sequence and force your progression to Stage 5 (instead of Stage 5'). :T

I played the original RoB, and after reading this I was "What jockery is this?", then I remember that I ALWAYS fought Carmilla as "extra things to do for 100%"... Silly me.

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2013, 02:48:02 PM »
0
Man it's been a while since i've posted something constructive.

Bumping the thread here. Main reason is to ask about some things around the background of the story here (Not sure if this is the thread to ask but whatever).


- Barlowe. Is he native to uber drac's timeline or Barlowe's own timeline? Trying to write a part of Julius's storyline but i'm kinda stuck because of this.
- Overall, has uber Draclua wiped out humanity in his own timeline? Is he stuck or lazy to full clear the world and is at a 98-99% clear rate?
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 05:18:05 AM »
0
- Barlowe. Is he native to uber drac's timeline or Barlowe's own timeline? Trying to write a part of Julius's storyline but i'm kinda stuck because of this.

Write him as though he's from his own timeline. Fou-Lu is busy with his game still, but he expressed discontent with my idea of segregating bosses between dimensions (much like for playable characters at a previous juncture). I'll update the initial post at a later date, but my current idea to work within that limitation is to have Uber Dracula acting as a sort of magnet, a warped black hole in the middle of everything that's drawing everything else (good or bad) towards it. In this way, Aeon would merely accelerate the rate at which heroes are pulled in to face Dracula, and any of Dracula's minions from across time/space would be drawn to serve the Uber count. :T

- Overall, has uber Draclua wiped out humanity in his own timeline? Is he stuck or lazy to full clear the world and is at a 98-99% clear rate?

Serio would need to confirm this, but I believe that Dracula can't be bothered with stragglers if there are any. So yeah, let's say 98-99% wiped out. Not unheard of for pockets of humanity to linger after an apocalypse. :x
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2013, 03:00:53 PM »
0
I really like that idea, as it helps explain why some of them are there, I think. Even though Uber Drac is basically all-powerful, it's a little hard for me to imagine him making a conscious decision to pluck out Brauner (or maybe Olrox, or Galamoth) and think, "all this guy ever did was try to usurp my place, and then he got killed by my servant. He'd make a great add-on to my army!"

It also explains some of the flat-out "whoops, how did that happen" situations, like the april fools characters, but those are probably stories that don't really need to make much sense anyways.

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 04:29:35 PM »
0
Perhaps uber Dracula doesn't control this "power" to draw people here at will? Perhaps he's even unaware of the warping of dimensions around him? To him, time most likely has little meaning anymore especially if your immortal.
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 10:20:20 PM »
0
Quote
- Overall, has uber Draclua wiped out humanity in his own timeline? Is he stuck or lazy to full clear the world and is at a 98-99% clear rate?
I interpreted it as a more advanced version of Final Fantasy VI broken/dark world. He controls the world in the sense that no one can oppose him anymore. There are still some human towns, hidden or not, but they are slowly dying because there are demons and evil creatures everywhere. He becomes playful and passive, like Walter.

By the way, I like the magnet idea too. Shaft, Dracula and Death perhaps can figure out what is happening with the dimensions, but it's was not exactly planned. For "my" Shaft, for example, it's just something he believed could happen and he sees it like some sort of a blessing. Y'know, to consume all the worlds and blah, blah...

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2013, 04:01:19 PM »
0
Advanced state of the world of ruin, FF 6 style, wouldn't be a bad way of setting the tone outside of the castle.

Perhaps uber Dracula has done other things to shatter human morale. Eternal night perhaps? Or at least very dim days.

Perhaps something like innastrad from magic the gathering. (Vampires and all other sorts of creatures bullied and killed humans, while humans themselves prayed in vain for salvation.)
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »
0
Perhaps uber Dracula has done other things to shatter human morale. Eternal night perhaps? Or at least very dim days.

I agree here. Once I though the only way for Dracula to become truly invincible was to reconstruct the Ebony Stone, so it'd grant him Eternal Night, since he would now possess both Vampire Treasures (the other being the Crimson Stone).

But never mind the "stone" idea. I agree only with the eternal night thing Superscope proposed. Dracula did this once in Dracula's Curse using only magic (the japanese intro for the game suggests Dracula summoned the night himself, although it could only be symbolism for "darkness surrounding the land"). Since this game is essentially Dracula's Curse if Trevor had died, I think it fits.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2013, 01:15:08 AM »
0
in OoE Shanoa stated that Dracula's castle was linked to hell. Another possible "apocalypse" caused by Dracula's victory in his world (the one that already happened) could be that the boundaries between hell and earth are no more so that demons could wander the earth and transform it into the universe of the Berserk manga, lol.

That would be a humongous cataclysm which would be the end of the world as we know it, leaving from little to no chance of survival for humans... and yet nothing compared to what Dracula is going to do next.

Offline Superscope

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 489
  • Vampire hunter from Australia
  • Respect: +26
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2013, 03:17:51 PM »
0
Perhaps it would be wise to add simple reasons for why some of the lesser henchmen are here to help writers get some easy parts done, along with a unified personality for everybody to work with.

I'll start with the Nercomancer. Why is he here ?Other to serve uber Dracula? Is he after a place where he can perform his dark sorcery without prosecution or judgemental option? Is he simply seeking power or perhaps favor? Is he just a servant of camilia and therefore shows a existence of a hierarchy on who's in charge of what?
"To describe this madness? Give all the bosses steroids, and put them in a line."
"What is a Belmont? A miserable pile of whips and sub-weapons."
"WARNING - Touhou Fanatic - WARNING"
I Make CVF videos!

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2013, 07:53:47 AM »
0
Why is he here ?Other to serve uber Dracula? Is he after a place where he can perform his dark sorcery without prosecution or judgemental option? Is he simply seeking power or perhaps favor? Is he just a servant of camilia and therefore shows a existence of a hierarchy on who's in charge of what?

I like the idea of a hierarchy within the ranks of evil. With Death as his right hand, and aware of every servant pulled to his service, Dracula would already know who he should be keeping on a leash (i.e. Olrox), who he can bribe for their services or intimidate (i.e. Brauner/Dario), and who would be willing to follow him unconditionally (i.e. Shaft, Carmilla). :T

Although the Necromancer will be represented by the DXX sprites, I believe he should be written as the one from CotM; one of Carmilla's lieutenants and an enforcer that serves her and Dracula's wills. Necromancy is, in a sense, the study of death... and one usually studies a dark art like that in pursuit of power, either for its own sake, or in order to achieve an everlasting life. :x

Edit: Discussed this magnet idea with Fou and Serio. Uber Dracula is thus a negative vacuum in the dimensions, drawing in all traces of his power, and those that serve him, from across the Castlevania multiverse. Aeon and Germaine remain as they always have, ever viligant protectors of time working to prevent disaster through their recruitment/summonings. :]
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline GentlemanAeon

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • I'm a LADY. Lady Loretta
  • Respect: +1
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2013, 05:26:02 AM »
0
Going in with the ranks of Evil gig, I have to wonder, what of the historical elements in the game? Not as in the game's history, but things that would definitely add backstory, like what they were based off of?

For example, there's the plastered bases which are simple enough. Medusa, Scylla, people cursed with something they didn't deserve and became monsters in the end.

Then there's the monsters that go into areas where I do not want to lead this thread into. Going with Cyber's analysis of "Dimension", what if the reason for the major forces (aka Harder enemies) in the parts of the castle with the more valuable parts to adventurers hidden away, assuming they were kept as trophies from previous adventurers for theories sake, is because Death rips apart dimensions to find the forces needed?

I'm not talking about Skeletons, Mud golems or mutated beings. For one like Dracula that would be child's play. Instead, what if he got the higher class demons and "fallen myths" to protect his castle due to somehow going to different dimensions containing the beings?
To make it easier, I think it would be best to lump it all together and call the dimension "Hell", with some bits of "Isle of Misfit Toys". Not Hell in the traditional sense, but more of a dimension where the normal reality for us fades in the darkness, completely unnatural forms and ways of thinking and doing that controls their reality, right down to the laws of physics. In short, to get the high class luxury of security, he and/or Death have to travel to another reality to make some sort of deal or whatever that reality's ways dictate in order for them to return.

I want to go on and conceptualize what this "Hell" is like in terms and why they keep helping Dracula, and as to why they appear so much. Could there be organized crime in "Hell", where immortality is complete and shame is all but forgotten? They may sound impressively powerful, and yet they can be easily defeated in game. What if this was because they're a dimension away from home? In "Hell", death may as well be a pebble in their shoe (if they wear any), but in the "Castlevania" dimension, they're severely weakened from their own home ground.

The final thought I had was for those with actual history or more of a backstory than was let on. Take for example Carmilla. In her story written by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu, she was a lesbian vampire who often held/went to masquerade balls. She would find some people to feed off of, and yet in her eternities she finds beautiful young women to cherish and love. However, all of her relationships always ended with her (pardon the pun) biting off more than she could chew. What if this happened enough to where when she met Dracula, he was probably the only constant who could match and surpass her and that she wouldn't have to worry about killing (if she did worry about it in the first place. Only know bits and pieces of the book).

Another idea for this is also Brauner. I know that most people didn't like/hated PoR, however I think the CV team on this game did more research on WW2, in which case I must say it blew my mind. The source escapes me, as I can't seem to find it. However, there was a person who escaped WW2 named Victor Brauner.  He lost a relative in WW1 (either a daughter or his wife, completely on memory here) and he is a surrealist painter. I don't know about you all, but this definitely explains to me some of his character. Surrealism is best known for it's freedom from the restrictions of logic and reality. What is better to represent this than paintings that literally come to life, insanity, and a master piece to annihlate reality?

A final note is that these are simply thoughts that I'm throwing out to hopefully help conceptualization abit more.
Get your own signature, this ones taken.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2013, 08:59:58 PM »
0
You should clarify what you're trying to say in that "Death rips things apart" paragraph. I had to re-read it several times before I realized what you meant. And I highly doubt Death would actively tear into foreign dimensions simply to recruit. Even a primordial being has rules to follow. >_>

So all these famous demons are kind of like Shuma Gorath when he's not residing in the Chaos Dimension then. I suppose it works to explain how they're weakened on the mortal plane, and thus would willingly follow Dracula. Speaking for myself only here, but I've always considered Dracula as "Hell's mightiest emissary" in that humanity is going to call him back for a free ride topside at least once every century, often more. Most of the demons are probably hitchhiking with him for a chance to wreck everything in sight, fulfill their own agendas, or whatever else tickles their fancy. :x

Regarding Carmilla, Fou, Serio and I all agree that we should try to stick with what the CV interpretation gives us, considering that as a baseline, and flesh it out as much as we can. Though I have not personally read it, I've been told there are aspects of the Sheridan Le Fanu's version that don't quite mesh well with what CV has chosen to do with her. The lesbianism comes to mind, outside of the games where she's paired with cat-girl Laura. :/

Not sure what to say about that Brauner thing, other than that it's interesting and something to mull over. :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2013, 08:10:13 AM »
0
About these mightiest demons thing, I always though the monsters from myth and lore (Like Cthulhu, or the greek monsters, or the Oz monsters) were simply recreations made by Dracula, Death and the Devil Forgemasters using souls and their magic to... Uhh... Forge demons, based on folklore and their own knowledge, as to better convey fear and submission on mankind through familiar faces of their lore. Like, for instance, to attack Brazil, Dracula would require many Curupiras (A prankster spirit of sorts on my country's folklore), and would demand that Death and the Devil Forgemasters create them and used them as artifices to better convey fear on a region through their specific cultural knowledge. That would also explain why they are submissive to Dracula (He controls souls, and since the monsters are made from souls, yeah...) and why are they so weak compared to their fictional counterparts. They are made to be powerful, indeed, but most importantly, visually threatening. They cannot be as powerful as they are in their home fiction simply because it would require a WALLOP of souls to reproduce such power. So they try making them *strong*, enough to execute supernatural/strong/magical feats.

I also though that Dracula's huge library was one good evidence for such extended cultural and fictional knowledge being used as base for his ever growing army (which came to encompass even Criptozoology). Proof of this are creatures that were never even hypothesized to exist , not even through legends, created exclusivelly for fiction, like Lion, Tin Man and Scarecrow, or Cthulhu, or The Creature, or Chronomage.

And let's not forget that Devil Forgemasters learned their trade from Dracula himself. On CoD, their power is said to rival Death, so I assumed that it was most logical for this to be one of Death's jobs. To create an ever growing army for Dracula using the souls he reaps. (And the explanation for "no more Devil Forgemasters on the franchise" is that when Dracula had two, very early on his first attempt at terrorizing mankind, one of them failed miserably in serving him, and the other was used as a vessel, but was too weak to withstand him, leading him to not trust humans as his so-close partners because they would fail again, prompting him and Death in making them legendary monsters by themselves.)

This doesn't explain how he has access to Cthulhu before Lovecraft was born though, but I'm inclined to believe in a "timeless" library of sorts... Or the souls composing one of his Cthulhus simply influenced Lovecraft in a nightmare or something... Or Death can see in the future, maybe?...

The most common monsters (Zombies, Skeletons, Animated Armors, Bats, Lesser uncategorized demons like Imps) would be just products of necromancy/mind control/magic mutation/wild creatures controlled through instinct, explaining why Dracula has such a big array of experts in the dark arts.

Just my two cents on the matter, only.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:07:53 PM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline VictorBorAng

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • ...
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2013, 12:36:08 AM »
0
Hey ThePlotTwist do you mind if i post your explanation at TVtropes WMG board? (with credits and some modifications of course)

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »
0
Hey ThePlotTwist do you mind if i post your explanation at TVtropes WMG board? (with credits and some modifications of course)

Why, of course not.

Offline VictorBorAng

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • ...
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2013, 03:09:15 AM »
0
Posted it.

Offline Frikman

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • i'm a llama. hell yeah
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2013, 02:13:28 PM »
0
This doesn't explain how he has access to Cthulhu before Lovecraft was born though, but I'm inclined to believe in a "timeless" library of sorts... Or the souls composing one of his Cthulhus simply influenced Lovecraft in a nightmare or something... Or Death can see in the future, maybe?...
Wasnt mentioned some time ago that since player Death was the same as boss Death he was some sort of timeless being? I could be wrong but that's what I remember. Anyway, even if Death could see the future I doubt he would be chasing after human imaginaries just to create new monsters, unless he looked specifically after people who he knew would eventually make iconical myths and things, Lovecraft being a great example.

Offline GentlemanAeon

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • I'm a LADY. Lady Loretta
  • Respect: +1
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2013, 08:45:34 PM »
0
I was actually somewhat under the impression that Devil Forgemasters or Dracula could essentially make any demon or monster and all that was required was some imagination and/or black magic. But my only reasoning behind this is the Cowardly Lion, Tin Man, and Scarecrow enemies in SotN, and the variousm mythical creatures and Goetic demons.
Get your own signature, this ones taken.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2013, 01:11:13 AM »
+1
Wasnt mentioned some time ago that since player Death was the same as boss Death he was some sort of timeless being? I could be wrong but that's what I remember. Anyway, even if Death could see the future I doubt he would be chasing after human imaginaries just to create new monsters, unless he looked specifically after people who he knew would eventually make iconical myths and things, Lovecraft being a great example.

Well, if Death can indeed see in the future, then he knows what monsters will be created and recognized as fearsome and dangerous creatures of fiction. If Death cannot see in the future (which I believe he can't, taking the canon in consideration, and Death's troubles with time travellers), then I point to Dracula's library being an "Akashic Record" of literature, produced by Chaos/the Castle itself, by channeling information from the future. It would also explain the various anachronic itens present inside the Castle while they weren't even invented yet (Hamburger, I'm looking at you). How does the Castle do it, though, I can't hypothesize... yet, but I think the presence of the Clock Tower might have something to do with it.

Offline GentlemanAeon

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 43
  • I'm a LADY. Lady Loretta
  • Respect: +1
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2013, 03:33:48 AM »
0
Well, if Death can indeed see in the future, then he knows what monsters will be created and recognized as fearsome and dangerous creatures of fiction. If Death cannot see in the future (which I believe he can't, taking the canon in consideration, and Death's troubles with time travellers), then I point to Dracula's library being an "Akashic Record" of literature, produced by Chaos/the Castle itself, by channeling information from the future. It would also explain the various anachronic itens present inside the Castle while they weren't even invented yet (Hamburger, I'm looking at you). How does the Castle do it, though, I can't hypothesize... yet, but I think the presence of the Clock Tower might have something to do with it.

Hmm, after seeing some items on the castle's geography and it's center being Chaos, as well as the concept of having the title of "Dark Lord".
Well, would it be alright of me to post a theory of mine? Although I must say that it may sound completely out of whack with Castlevania and sound more or less like a crazy man. Case in point, I got the idea from a Magical Girl anime.
Get your own signature, this ones taken.

Offline VictorBorAng

  • full member
  • ***
  • Posts: 81
  • ...
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2013, 03:17:47 PM »
0
Quote
Well, if Death can indeed see in the future, then he knows what monsters will be created and recognized as fearsome and dangerous creatures of fiction. If Death cannot see in the future (which I believe he can't, taking the canon in consideration, and Death's troubles with time travellers), then I point to Dracula's library being an "Akashic Record" of literature, produced by Chaos/the Castle itself, by channeling information from the future. It would also explain the various anachronic itens present inside the Castle while they weren't even invented yet (Hamburger, I'm looking at you). How does the Castle do it, though, I can't hypothesize... yet, but I think the presence of the Clock Tower might have something to do with it.

It's called Chaos, it can do anything it wants without having to explain itself

Offline RyuTheWeredragon

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #78 on: May 15, 2014, 03:25:50 AM »
0
I hate to blow up a lot of theories already...

But as the one in charge of Richter's story, I have to say that having the Richter you fight as a boss be the REAL Richter kinda' treads on the toes of his plot.

If the defeat pose could be changed so he fell onto the floor like Simon or Carrie, that'd be one thing, but at the moment, he dies in a mess of gore. This means it can NOT be the real Richter, or else Julius would cease to exist, and thus it'd ruin the main timeline.

Offline s̻͔̦͔e̫̣̹͕r̤̗̤̥͔i͎̪̳̺̜o̰̜͓̫̺͖

  • administrator
  • chaotic member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
  • no personal text here.
  • Respect: +67
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #79 on: May 15, 2014, 12:46:15 PM »
0
Quote
If the defeat pose could be changed so he fell onto the floor like Simon or Carrie, that'd be one thing
already possible. every boss mode playable character has two ko anims, one the default arcade one, one story mode-specific which can be used instead of the arcade version. in that one the character simply lands and crouches down, and then remains like that.
Dracula was here

Offline RyuTheWeredragon

  • jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: 0
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #80 on: May 15, 2014, 07:05:18 PM »
0
Alright. Was making sure, because some people may be a bit happy to kill Richter off - I recall back in the old text only boards that there was a LOT of plots that had Richter die at the end of the fight.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2014, 02:15:16 PM »
0
One thing I'm wondering here, if Gabriel/Dracul is ever added, that would mean he would fight Death eventualy and probably think he's Zobek, the question is: Is Classic CV Death Zobek? I know you guys want to make Death be a multi-dimensional being (Except for Touhou's universe), but by making Death and Zobek be one and the same, it would mean Death originated from LoS universe because Zobek was once a human, and Death has only that form (Robe, scythe, skeleton) because Zobek changed his true form to become like that, there's also the fact they have different personalities, but maybe that one can be explained with the fact he doesn't serve anyone in LoS.

Offline rasgar

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 738
  • Who of you can say?
  • Respect: +39
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2014, 02:33:12 PM »
0
I would argue that while Zobek fills a Death-like role, he may not actually be "Death". Officially he is the Lord of the Dead, which may not be the same thing. Granted I haven't played LoS2 yet so maybe it's expanded on there.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2014, 06:42:33 PM »
0
I would argue that while Zobek fills a Death-like role, he may not actually be "Death". Officially he is the Lord of the Dead, which may not be the same thing. Granted I haven't played LoS2 yet so maybe it's expanded on there.

While LoS1 calls him Lord of the dead, LoS2 calls him Death, but his LoS2 profile also says that he changed his true form to look like the concept of Death (Again, Skeleton, scythe, robe), so if you guys decide against making Zobek and Death be one and the same, I guess it could say Zobek is "just" a strong Necromancer who just looks like Death/pretends to be Death.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2014, 06:24:37 AM »
0
I would argue that while Zobek fills a Death-like role, he may not actually be "Death". Officially he is the Lord of the Dead, which may not be the same thing. Granted I haven't played LoS2 yet so maybe it's expanded on there.

Nyope. Saw the highlight reel on YouTube. Doesn't explain shit about Zobek. At this point, he's a powerful necromancer, a Lord of Shadow, and nothing more. :T

I would hope that if Gabriel were added in, a competent writer would take him from before the Dracolich fight/after killing Pan, when his resolve is wafer thin, so that seeing Uber Dracula's potential is what subconsciously spurs him to welcome dark powers he's earned. I don't believe this game needs any more Draculas running around besides the boss one, and the future playable one... not to mention having "vanilla" Gabriel would encompass the unique facets of LoS' combat without being redundant with another Simon/Trevucard. :/
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2014, 12:13:24 AM »
0
I don't see how LoS2 Gabriel would be a problem on a game with 3 Simons, 2 Richters and 2 Marias, specialy because he's very different from classic CV Dracula... If the name were to be a problem, just call him Dracul (That's how he calls himself anyway, characters in LoS just mistankenly call him Dracula).

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2014, 03:08:27 AM »
0
I don't see how LoS2 Gabriel would be a problem on a game with 3 Simons, 2 Richters and 2 Marias, specialy because he's very different from classic CV Dracula... If the name were to be a problem, just call him Dracul (That's how he calls himself anyway, characters in LoS just mistankenly call him Dracula).

Fair enough. I don't see a whole lot that's functionally different between Gabeula and Gabriel, personally... in terms of aesthetics and execution though, plenty. Gabriel with Gabeula as a hold start alt. would be a good compromise I feel, but that's all on whoever wants them in to sprite out both sets, maybe with those in-game travel book sketches as a starting point. :T

I still stand by LoS-verse Simon/Trevor having barely anything unique to them, especially with how MoF handled their whip play/magic. Unless more skins are absolutely in demand, I'd say just absorb their sub-weapons into vanilla Gabriel or something. LoS Alucard has that DLC campaign in LoS2 to draw moves/movements from at least. :/
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2014, 03:18:21 PM »
0
Fair enough. I don't see a whole lot that's functionally different between Gabeula and Gabriel, personally... in terms of aesthetics and execution though, plenty. Gabriel with Gabeula as a hold start alt. would be a good compromise I feel, but that's all on whoever wants them in to sprite out both sets, maybe with those in-game travel book sketches as a starting point. :T

The main differences between LoS1 and LoS2 are that LoS2 Gabriel has Void Sword and Chaos Claws, while they both have the same basic function as light magic and dark magic, they have different ranges than the whip, and of course, elemental damage and other ranged attacks, LoS2 Gabriel also lacks sub weapons like holy water and the fairies, he has Mist Form and it's offensive options with Void Sword and Chaos Claws as well, and he can use his dodge on the air to go back to the ground, those differences are significant enough.

Quote
I still stand by LoS-verse Simon/Trevor having barely anything unique to them, especially with how MoF handled their whip play/magic. Unless more skins are absolutely in demand, I'd say just absorb their sub-weapons into vanilla Gabriel or something. LoS Alucard has that DLC campaign in LoS2 to draw moves/movements from at least. :/

LoS Simon at least has the Spirit of Belnadez and Spirit of Schneider, they both function really differently from Light Magic and Dark Magic, the problem is that Spirit of Belnadez can block any kind of damage (Including unblockables lol) and Simon doesn't get into blockstun when it blocks, so he can just attacking, not sure how that would be balanced... LoS Trevor is basicaly 2D LoS1 Gabriel with different sub weapons, so, he's the most useless one, and I'm not a big fan of transfering Simon's and Trevor's sub weapons to Gabriel, because that could possibly make him a character with too many tools at his disposal (Simon's throwing axe as anti-air, Trevor's Boomerang could possibly make the daggers useless, Electric Bomb to get rid of projectiles or just leave hitboxes around to damage the opponent), and characters who have everything can be boring to play with if those tools are too strong...

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2015, 03:59:37 AM »
0
Well, if Death can indeed see in the future, then he knows what monsters will be created and recognized as fearsome and dangerous creatures of fiction. If Death cannot see in the future (which I believe he can't, taking the canon in consideration, and Death's troubles with time travellers), then I point to Dracula's library being an "Akashic Record" of literature, produced by Chaos/the Castle itself, by channeling information from the future. It would also explain the various anachronic itens present inside the Castle while they weren't even invented yet (Hamburger, I'm looking at you). How does the Castle do it, though, I can't hypothesize... yet, but I think the presence of the Clock Tower might have something to do with it.

Wait, wait...

I know I've been gone awhile, but I'm a little lost, and I really only need a "yes" or a "no" on this question:

Are we discussing how monsters can possibly exist in a world where the Grim Reaper is the physical personification of Death and, beyond that, DRACULA exists?

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2015, 02:26:22 AM »
0
One thing I've been thinking about is an explanation on how the characters can go to so many random locations (They start at Castlevania's entrance but end up going to other places like City of Haze Street), and one thing I thought of is Brauner being the one doing that, similar to how Jonathan and Charlotte can go to other places very far from Castlevania with his paintings in PoR, maybe it can be said that his powers were increased by Uber Dracula, which is why he can do it without his paintings, and Brauner does that to delay/weaken/kill the characters by forcing them to fight all those bosses.

But of course, for that to work properly, it would need to be done with MUGEN 1.1 with the 30 tiers of bosses, just so Brauner can be put on a tier after Albus and Barlowe, wouldn't make sense for Brauner to be defeated/killed, thus, ending the cause of those random teleportations, then the characters are suddenly on Ecclesia, outside of Castlevania.

What do you guys think about this?

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2015, 12:32:02 AM »
0
One thing I've been thinking about is an explanation on how the characters can go to so many random locations (They start at Castlevania's entrance but end up going to other places like City of Haze Street), and one thing I thought of is Brauner being the one doing that, similar to how Jonathan and Charlotte can go to other places very far from Castlevania with his paintings in PoR, maybe it can be said that his powers were increased by Uber Dracula, which is why he can do it without his paintings, and Brauner does that to delay/weaken/kill the characters by forcing them to fight all those bosses.

But of course, for that to work properly, it would need to be done with MUGEN 1.1 with the 30 tiers of bosses, just so Brauner can be put on a tier after Albus and Barlowe, wouldn't make sense for Brauner to be defeated/killed, thus, ending the cause of those random teleportations, then the characters are suddenly on Ecclesia, outside of Castlevania.

What do you guys think about this?

I'm not sure.  I think there could be several explanations for the disjointed nature of this particular castle, actually.  For instance...

So, Uber Drac is essentially a personified black hole, sucking in power from across all timelines/dimensions/universes/whatever--the personification of the perfect cosmic parasite, which if we're being poetic, is a void.  I would think with all the dead universes and timelines (assuming there are some that have been sucked dry by Uber Dracula already, or at least some which are severely damaged, and these would be what's prompting action against him in the first place), some pieces and parts that have "broken off" (for lack of a better term) are bound to slam into each other--likely near the eye of the storm, or the event horizon of the void, which would be Dracula's castle.  Thus, a castle that's slightly more erratically composed than is typical.

Or, everything that shares in Uber Drac's power (not necessarily his minions) also experiences his immense power increase--thus, a Dracula who is a physical manifestation of a perfect predator (which a void is, since it's all-consuming and nothing escapes its maw) would exist inside of a perfect representation of chaos...a more erratic castle.

Or, the street from the City of Haze was technically a part of the castle all along (in a painting inside of the castle), so it's therefore a section of the castle all its own--and so any part of it is fair game for the castle to call upon as a room within itself.  No super-castle explanation needed in this scenario.

Ultimately, though, it's cool to consider, but I don't think it's a question that definitely needs an answer.  And if it does, then one of those three is preferable IMO to making Brauner more important that he should be.

Like MST3K's theme once stated:

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes, and other science facts--
Repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax."
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 12:45:52 AM by Morrison »

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2015, 01:51:52 AM »
0
Alright, those sound better.

I realized some hours after posting, but Brauner teleporting the other characters would cause a contradiction with Stella's and Loretta's story, he would have to reason to teleport them to the bosses, so it wouldn't work out after all.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #92 on: May 08, 2015, 03:40:51 AM »
0
So has anything been decided about Isaac? (If/when he's added that is) Will boss Isaac be from Uber Dracula's universe? (A vampire perhaps?)

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2015, 10:16:01 AM »
0
Quote
I realized some hours after posting, but Brauner teleporting the other characters would cause a contradiction with Stella's and Loretta's story, he would have to reason to teleport them to the bosses, so it wouldn't work out after all.
If Serio could code a short intro with the characters finding Brauner's portrait and getting teleported to his stage that would do. Then again, it depends whether it can be done or not.

Also I have a suggestion: Could boss Richter's stage be the Whip's Memory for some stories?
Since he is not supposed to be the real one we could use the whip memory ghost as an alternative to "lol no: doppelgänger". For the sake of variation I think it would be good.

Also also, what's the deal with boss Richter? Can we use the real one every now and then?
A doppelgänger doesn't really make sense that much because he never existed in that dimension (in fact, he didn't exist anywhere else)

Please, bear with me. I've been re-reading through the thread but I'm not sure we reached a consensus about that. I may have missed it because we have A LOT of material.

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2015, 01:23:38 PM »
0
If Serio could code a short intro with the characters finding Brauner's portrait and getting teleported to his stage that would do. Then again, it depends whether it can be done or not.

But what stage would be used if that's possible? Because if I'm not wrong in PoR you can only teleport to that room from that room with the portraits.

Quote
Also I have a suggestion: Could boss Richter's stage be the Whip's Memory for some stories?
Since he is not supposed to be the real one we could use the whip memory ghost as an alternative to "lol no: doppelgänger". For the sake of variation I think it would be good.

Also also, what's the deal with boss Richter? Can we use the real one every now and then?
A doppelgänger doesn't really make sense that much because he never existed in that dimension (in fact, he didn't exist anywhere else)

Please, bear with me. I've been re-reading through the thread but I'm not sure we reached a consensus about that. I may have missed it because we have A LOT of material.

Isn't boss Richter the real deal? Basicaly, he fights against the player for the same reason he claims to fight Alucard in SotN ("If Dracula returns, then the battle can last for eternity", "What need for the shepperd when the wolves are all gone"), minus the Shaft possession, guess he'd be a doppelganger only against player Richter.

Offline s̻͔̦͔e̫̣̹͕r̤̗̤̥͔i͎̪̳̺̜o̰̜͓̫̺͖

  • administrator
  • chaotic member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2248
  • no personal text here.
  • Respect: +67
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #95 on: May 23, 2015, 02:51:12 PM »
0
stage can't be changed. it's either set or random, but if set, everyone has the same one, and if random any stage in the game could be used, including intro and dracula's.

i don't remember if brauner's portrait was a free standing one or a part of the background. might've been free since it has a few variations. the brauner intro can be done if a different stage graphics are overlaid on top of the screen like with the post-dracula cliff.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 03:00:59 PM by serio »
Dracula was here

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2015, 04:44:15 PM »
0
Quote
Isn't boss Richter the real deal? Basicaly, he fights against the player for the same reason he claims to fight Alucard in SotN
Could be the Richter from this dimension, but it feels a bit odd. Trevor dies early in this timeline so the whole Belmont clan is basically a huge failure. What I mean is that Richter never defeated Drac so he didn't really have reasons for his mid life crisis like he had during SotN. Since the Belmonts never became heroes maybe he could just be bitter about being an outcast like Trevor was.

Quote
the brauner intro can be done if a different stage graphics are overlaid on top of the screen like with the post-dracula cliff.
Sounds like a lot of work. I was just trying to get around the issue of Brauner summoning the player, but we can just say "a magical castle did it" and that would basically do it, since this castle is supposed to be more chaotic than all of the previous ones.

Quote
So has anything been decided about Isaac? (If/when he's added that is) Will boss Isaac be from Uber Dracula's universe? (A vampire perhaps?)
That would be perfectly ok I guess. There is an important issue though: during Curse of Darkness his fancy devil forgemaster outfit (same as Hector's) had been shredded in a revealing way because after Dracula's defeat he was prosecuted and went even more insane. Should boss Isaac have his full uniform in this game?

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2015, 05:31:15 PM »
0
Could be the Richter from this dimension, but it feels a bit odd. Trevor dies early in this timeline so the whole Belmont clan is basically a huge failure. What I mean is that Richter never defeated Drac so he didn't really have reasons for his mid life crisis like he had during SotN. Since the Belmonts never became heroes maybe he could just be bitter about being an outcast like Trevor was.

Trevor was killed and he never had any relationship with Sypha, that means the Belmont clan couldn't continue, so no Richter on Uber Dracula's universe.

Quote
That would be perfectly ok I guess. There is an important issue though: during Curse of Darkness his fancy devil forgemaster outfit (same as Hector's) had been shredded in a revealing way because after Dracula's defeat he was prosecuted and went even more insane. Should boss Isaac have his full uniform in this game?

Yeah, I was actualy thinking that he'd need to have his full uniform if he's native from Uber Dracula's universe, does the CoD manga have him fully clothed? That would make it easier to make sprites (If whoever is making Isaac's sprites is willing to do that of course).

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2015, 01:48:46 AM »
0
Boss Richter is Player Richter after he loses while fighting towards Dracula. We're not doing any of that multiple versions of the same dude from different universes thing anymore. It's all as familiar as can be now. :/

Sprites for Isaac/Hector have been at a standstill for a while. Don said to me that he hasn't been working on them for a while. I've not progressed much more with Trevor/Player Dracula due to work, among other things. :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2015, 02:25:08 AM »
0
Boss Richter is Player Richter after he loses while fighting towards Dracula. We're not doing any of that multiple versions of the same dude from different universes thing anymore. It's all as familiar as can be now. :/

Does that mean Player Richter will start out with a personality like boss Richter? Then develop to someone not as proud? And the Richter he fights is just a doppelganger?

Quote
Sprites for Isaac/Hector have been at a standstill for a while. Don said to me that he hasn't been working on them for a while. I've not progressed much more with Trevor/Player Dracula due to work, among other things. :T

I guess that's understandable, Hector/Isaac/Cod Trevor are from 3D games and making sprites of their movesets must be hell, even worse with Hector's/Isaac's IDs.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2015, 05:09:33 AM »
0
Does that mean Player Richter will start out with a personality like boss Richter? Then develop to someone not as proud? And the Richter he fights is just a doppelganger?

That would depend on whoever ends up writing for Richter. What we know of Richter within reason is that he had doubts about his legacy, and his continuing usefulness/self-worth some time after he defeated Dracula in RoB. Shaft, somehow, capitalized upon these so-called "chinks" in Richter's long thought iron-clad Belmont will, and manipulated him into becoming Lord of Castlevania in SotN (to remove him as a threat to Dracula's resurrection). Richter is a hero, but Shaft could not have turned him to evil without those seeds of doubt to exploit to begin with. :x

As for the Richter mirror (in terms of story), it could be either a doppelganger, or it could be a manifestation of his lingering doubts that he must battle (i.e. summoned by Shaft/Uber Dracula?). Or something else that fits. Again, up to whoever ends up writing his story. Bear in mind that Fou-Lu tends to like introspective encounters though, and it's something we'll all be looking for in general. :T
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2015, 04:47:37 PM »
0
Quote
Boss Richter is Player Richter after he loses while fighting towards Dracula. We're not doing any of that multiple versions of the same dude from different universes thing anymore. It's all as familiar as can be now. :/

That would be two characters attacking überdrac's dimension. Isn't that pretty much against the rules?

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2015, 05:05:40 PM »
0
That would be two characters attacking überdrac's dimension. Isn't that pretty much against the rules?

The Player Richter vs. Boss Richter match is a situation that sets up the former to become the latter (i.e. Player Richter fights towards Dracula, encounters a manifestation of his fears/insecurities (Boss Richter), loses, is possessed by them. Now he IS Boss Richter, waiting for someone else to enter "his" castle). Where are you getting... whatever it is you posted from?
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Lukmendes

  • giga member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1965
  • llamas of shadow
  • Respect: +16
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2015, 11:53:03 AM »
0
Should a list be made of plot points that should be explained in specific encounters? Like, let's say, Dmitrii, when he's added, he won't have his ability to copy powers, he'll already start with some and hitting him won't make him copy that character's, if an explanation to that is made, it'd be better for him to explain that only to Soma and maybe Dario, it'd look weird for him to explain it to everyone, so whoever writes Soma's story should add the dialogue explaining that even if he/she planned another dialogue.

 

general forums