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Author Topic: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus  (Read 15062 times)

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Offline Superscope

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 04:29:35 PM »
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Perhaps uber Dracula doesn't control this "power" to draw people here at will? Perhaps he's even unaware of the warping of dimensions around him? To him, time most likely has little meaning anymore especially if your immortal.
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Offline Malphas

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 10:20:20 PM »
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Quote
- Overall, has uber Draclua wiped out humanity in his own timeline? Is he stuck or lazy to full clear the world and is at a 98-99% clear rate?
I interpreted it as a more advanced version of Final Fantasy VI broken/dark world. He controls the world in the sense that no one can oppose him anymore. There are still some human towns, hidden or not, but they are slowly dying because there are demons and evil creatures everywhere. He becomes playful and passive, like Walter.

By the way, I like the magnet idea too. Shaft, Dracula and Death perhaps can figure out what is happening with the dimensions, but it's was not exactly planned. For "my" Shaft, for example, it's just something he believed could happen and he sees it like some sort of a blessing. Y'know, to consume all the worlds and blah, blah...

Offline Superscope

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2013, 04:01:19 PM »
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Advanced state of the world of ruin, FF 6 style, wouldn't be a bad way of setting the tone outside of the castle.

Perhaps uber Dracula has done other things to shatter human morale. Eternal night perhaps? Or at least very dim days.

Perhaps something like innastrad from magic the gathering. (Vampires and all other sorts of creatures bullied and killed humans, while humans themselves prayed in vain for salvation.)
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Offline ThePlotTwist

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #63 on: October 03, 2013, 07:01:47 PM »
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Perhaps uber Dracula has done other things to shatter human morale. Eternal night perhaps? Or at least very dim days.

I agree here. Once I though the only way for Dracula to become truly invincible was to reconstruct the Ebony Stone, so it'd grant him Eternal Night, since he would now possess both Vampire Treasures (the other being the Crimson Stone).

But never mind the "stone" idea. I agree only with the eternal night thing Superscope proposed. Dracula did this once in Dracula's Curse using only magic (the japanese intro for the game suggests Dracula summoned the night himself, although it could only be symbolism for "darkness surrounding the land"). Since this game is essentially Dracula's Curse if Trevor had died, I think it fits.

Offline Malphas

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2013, 01:15:08 AM »
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in OoE Shanoa stated that Dracula's castle was linked to hell. Another possible "apocalypse" caused by Dracula's victory in his world (the one that already happened) could be that the boundaries between hell and earth are no more so that demons could wander the earth and transform it into the universe of the Berserk manga, lol.

That would be a humongous cataclysm which would be the end of the world as we know it, leaving from little to no chance of survival for humans... and yet nothing compared to what Dracula is going to do next.

Offline Superscope

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2013, 03:17:51 PM »
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Perhaps it would be wise to add simple reasons for why some of the lesser henchmen are here to help writers get some easy parts done, along with a unified personality for everybody to work with.

I'll start with the Nercomancer. Why is he here ?Other to serve uber Dracula? Is he after a place where he can perform his dark sorcery without prosecution or judgemental option? Is he simply seeking power or perhaps favor? Is he just a servant of camilia and therefore shows a existence of a hierarchy on who's in charge of what?
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Offline (yber])ragon10]{

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2013, 07:53:47 AM »
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Why is he here ?Other to serve uber Dracula? Is he after a place where he can perform his dark sorcery without prosecution or judgemental option? Is he simply seeking power or perhaps favor? Is he just a servant of camilia and therefore shows a existence of a hierarchy on who's in charge of what?

I like the idea of a hierarchy within the ranks of evil. With Death as his right hand, and aware of every servant pulled to his service, Dracula would already know who he should be keeping on a leash (i.e. Olrox), who he can bribe for their services or intimidate (i.e. Brauner/Dario), and who would be willing to follow him unconditionally (i.e. Shaft, Carmilla). :T

Although the Necromancer will be represented by the DXX sprites, I believe he should be written as the one from CotM; one of Carmilla's lieutenants and an enforcer that serves her and Dracula's wills. Necromancy is, in a sense, the study of death... and one usually studies a dark art like that in pursuit of power, either for its own sake, or in order to achieve an everlasting life. :x

Edit: Discussed this magnet idea with Fou and Serio. Uber Dracula is thus a negative vacuum in the dimensions, drawing in all traces of his power, and those that serve him, from across the Castlevania multiverse. Aeon and Germaine remain as they always have, ever viligant protectors of time working to prevent disaster through their recruitment/summonings. :]
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Offline GentlemanAeon

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2013, 05:26:02 AM »
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Going in with the ranks of Evil gig, I have to wonder, what of the historical elements in the game? Not as in the game's history, but things that would definitely add backstory, like what they were based off of?

For example, there's the plastered bases which are simple enough. Medusa, Scylla, people cursed with something they didn't deserve and became monsters in the end.

Then there's the monsters that go into areas where I do not want to lead this thread into. Going with Cyber's analysis of "Dimension", what if the reason for the major forces (aka Harder enemies) in the parts of the castle with the more valuable parts to adventurers hidden away, assuming they were kept as trophies from previous adventurers for theories sake, is because Death rips apart dimensions to find the forces needed?

I'm not talking about Skeletons, Mud golems or mutated beings. For one like Dracula that would be child's play. Instead, what if he got the higher class demons and "fallen myths" to protect his castle due to somehow going to different dimensions containing the beings?
To make it easier, I think it would be best to lump it all together and call the dimension "Hell", with some bits of "Isle of Misfit Toys". Not Hell in the traditional sense, but more of a dimension where the normal reality for us fades in the darkness, completely unnatural forms and ways of thinking and doing that controls their reality, right down to the laws of physics. In short, to get the high class luxury of security, he and/or Death have to travel to another reality to make some sort of deal or whatever that reality's ways dictate in order for them to return.

I want to go on and conceptualize what this "Hell" is like in terms and why they keep helping Dracula, and as to why they appear so much. Could there be organized crime in "Hell", where immortality is complete and shame is all but forgotten? They may sound impressively powerful, and yet they can be easily defeated in game. What if this was because they're a dimension away from home? In "Hell", death may as well be a pebble in their shoe (if they wear any), but in the "Castlevania" dimension, they're severely weakened from their own home ground.

The final thought I had was for those with actual history or more of a backstory than was let on. Take for example Carmilla. In her story written by Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu, she was a lesbian vampire who often held/went to masquerade balls. She would find some people to feed off of, and yet in her eternities she finds beautiful young women to cherish and love. However, all of her relationships always ended with her (pardon the pun) biting off more than she could chew. What if this happened enough to where when she met Dracula, he was probably the only constant who could match and surpass her and that she wouldn't have to worry about killing (if she did worry about it in the first place. Only know bits and pieces of the book).

Another idea for this is also Brauner. I know that most people didn't like/hated PoR, however I think the CV team on this game did more research on WW2, in which case I must say it blew my mind. The source escapes me, as I can't seem to find it. However, there was a person who escaped WW2 named Victor Brauner.  He lost a relative in WW1 (either a daughter or his wife, completely on memory here) and he is a surrealist painter. I don't know about you all, but this definitely explains to me some of his character. Surrealism is best known for it's freedom from the restrictions of logic and reality. What is better to represent this than paintings that literally come to life, insanity, and a master piece to annihlate reality?

A final note is that these are simply thoughts that I'm throwing out to hopefully help conceptualization abit more.
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Offline (yber])ragon10]{

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2013, 08:59:58 PM »
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You should clarify what you're trying to say in that "Death rips things apart" paragraph. I had to re-read it several times before I realized what you meant. And I highly doubt Death would actively tear into foreign dimensions simply to recruit. Even a primordial being has rules to follow. >_>

So all these famous demons are kind of like Shuma Gorath when he's not residing in the Chaos Dimension then. I suppose it works to explain how they're weakened on the mortal plane, and thus would willingly follow Dracula. Speaking for myself only here, but I've always considered Dracula as "Hell's mightiest emissary" in that humanity is going to call him back for a free ride topside at least once every century, often more. Most of the demons are probably hitchhiking with him for a chance to wreck everything in sight, fulfill their own agendas, or whatever else tickles their fancy. :x

Regarding Carmilla, Fou, Serio and I all agree that we should try to stick with what the CV interpretation gives us, considering that as a baseline, and flesh it out as much as we can. Though I have not personally read it, I've been told there are aspects of the Sheridan Le Fanu's version that don't quite mesh well with what CV has chosen to do with her. The lesbianism comes to mind, outside of the games where she's paired with cat-girl Laura. :/

Not sure what to say about that Brauner thing, other than that it's interesting and something to mull over. :T
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Offline ThePlotTwist

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2013, 08:10:13 AM »
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About these mightiest demons thing, I always though the monsters from myth and lore (Like Cthulhu, or the greek monsters, or the Oz monsters) were simply recreations made by Dracula, Death and the Devil Forgemasters using souls and their magic to... Uhh... Forge demons, based on folklore and their own knowledge, as to better convey fear and submission on mankind through familiar faces of their lore. Like, for instance, to attack Brazil, Dracula would require many Curupiras (A prankster spirit of sorts on my country's folklore), and would demand that Death and the Devil Forgemasters create them and used them as artifices to better convey fear on a region through their specific cultural knowledge. That would also explain why they are submissive to Dracula (He controls souls, and since the monsters are made from souls, yeah...) and why are they so weak compared to their fictional counterparts. They are made to be powerful, indeed, but most importantly, visually threatening. They cannot be as powerful as they are in their home fiction simply because it would require a WALLOP of souls to reproduce such power. So they try making them *strong*, enough to execute supernatural/strong/magical feats.

I also though that Dracula's huge library was one good evidence for such extended cultural and fictional knowledge being used as base for his ever growing army (which came to encompass even Criptozoology). Proof of this are creatures that were never even hypothesized to exist , not even through legends, created exclusivelly for fiction, like Lion, Tin Man and Scarecrow, or Cthulhu, or The Creature, or Chronomage.

And let's not forget that Devil Forgemasters learned their trade from Dracula himself. On CoD, their power is said to rival Death, so I assumed that it was most logical for this to be one of Death's jobs. To create an ever growing army for Dracula using the souls he reaps. (And the explanation for "no more Devil Forgemasters on the franchise" is that when Dracula had two, very early on his first attempt at terrorizing mankind, one of them failed miserably in serving him, and the other was used as a vessel, but was too weak to withstand him, leading him to not trust humans as his so-close partners because they would fail again, prompting him and Death in making them legendary monsters by themselves.)

This doesn't explain how he has access to Cthulhu before Lovecraft was born though, but I'm inclined to believe in a "timeless" library of sorts... Or the souls composing one of his Cthulhus simply influenced Lovecraft in a nightmare or something... Or Death can see in the future, maybe?...

The most common monsters (Zombies, Skeletons, Animated Armors, Bats, Lesser uncategorized demons like Imps) would be just products of necromancy/mind control/magic mutation/wild creatures controlled through instinct, explaining why Dracula has such a big array of experts in the dark arts.

Just my two cents on the matter, only.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:07:53 PM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline VictorBorAng

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2013, 12:36:08 AM »
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Hey ThePlotTwist do you mind if i post your explanation at TVtropes WMG board? (with credits and some modifications of course)

Offline ThePlotTwist

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2013, 02:25:12 PM »
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Hey ThePlotTwist do you mind if i post your explanation at TVtropes WMG board? (with credits and some modifications of course)

Why, of course not.

Offline VictorBorAng

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2013, 03:09:15 AM »
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Posted it.

Offline Frikman

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2013, 02:13:28 PM »
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This doesn't explain how he has access to Cthulhu before Lovecraft was born though, but I'm inclined to believe in a "timeless" library of sorts... Or the souls composing one of his Cthulhus simply influenced Lovecraft in a nightmare or something... Or Death can see in the future, maybe?...
Wasn´t mentioned some time ago that since player Death was the same as boss Death he was some sort of timeless being? I could be wrong but that's what I remember. Anyway, even if Death could see the future I doubt he would be chasing after human imaginaries just to create new monsters, unless he looked specifically after people who he knew would eventually make iconical myths and things, Lovecraft being a great example.

Offline GentlemanAeon

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Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2013, 08:45:34 PM »
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I was actually somewhat under the impression that Devil Forgemasters or Dracula could essentially make any demon or monster and all that was required was some imagination and/or black magic. But my only reasoning behind this is the Cowardly Lion, Tin Man, and Scarecrow enemies in SotN, and the variousm mythical creatures and Goetic demons.
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