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Author Topic: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles  (Read 6199 times)

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Offline Morrison

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EDIT: Ten dimensions  Anyone writing for this thing but still confused about the concept of dimensional existence (alternate timelines, gods, Aeon and Death, etc.) should see this video.  It may help clear up a few things.

I feel prepared to tackle the initial question of Saint Germain vs. Aeon in terms of position, power, and purpose.  It'll likely be a bit long...sorry if it's tl;dr, but these are important points to understanding my interpretation (not necessarily my "vision"--I'm not George Lucas or David Cox) of Aeon and Germain.

Aeon is, from what I can gather, a god--specifically, the god of time (which makes him the god of light and the god of order by proxy, since time is really the ordered quantification of light and its movement through the universe).  Why do I think this?  In Judgment, Aeon has the ability to manipulate time seemingly at will.  This would normally toss him into the realm of "chronomage", save for the fact that when all of the other characters are returned to their respective timelines at the end of the game, Aeon has no time to which he can return.  He's always existed, always had his powers, always presided over time itself.  He is infinite.  By combining this with the old Greco-Roman ideas of the gods essentially being self-aware concepts (fitting, since "Aeon" is a Latin word meaning "eternity"), we have Aeon the god of time being born of time and existing as a personification of time itself.  In contrast to Aeon exists Death, the self-proclaimed god of death--time's end (and, really, who are we to argue?). 

Why do I keep bringing up Death when I'm supposed to be talking about Aeon?  Well, Death and Aeon are connected.  They're different gods, they represent different goals and different ideals (time, life, order, light versus time's end, death, entropy, darkness), but in existence one often flows into the other.  Death causes time to move forward, and time's movement forward feeds into death.  They are not friends, and they oppose each other, but they are not necessarily enemies.  Not normally.  Often, I imagine they'd leave each other alone, as the universe is in balance when they're both doing their respective jobs. 

And this actually feeds into my point about purpose.  Aeon's purpose is to make sure that time flows uninterrupted--"growing wheat".  Death's purpose is to remove people and things when their time has come--"reaping wheat".  The universe is a carefully balanced system, and as physics teaches us, when one of two parties stops putting energy into a system that is normally run by two parties, that system falls into disorder.  That's what's happened.  Death's contract with Dracula has allowed the system to fall into disorder because Death cannot take Dracula and Dracula is gathering energy and introducing a third god into the mix--the self-aware concept of predation, hungry oblivion...the "un-maker" of the universe and existence, intent on gobbling everything whole, including himself.  Aeon dies with the loss of time, Death dies with the loss of things to make dead, Dracula dies with the destruction of all existence.  No Dark Lord was ever meant to get a hold of that kind of power, though Judgment makes it seem inevitable that they do eventually (Galamoth with his Time Reaper).  But I digress.

Aeon, of course, can't let that happen.  He has to find a way to bring the system back to order.  Death, likewise, must find a way to do so--but that will be more apparent in his story.  For now, let's get back to Aeon.

So, that's Aeon's purpose.  Now, what of his limitations?  Is he not a god?  Yes, but as I said a few posts prior, infinity is a burden all its own.  Higher standing doesn't always equal more freedom--in fact, in some ways, higher position (in existence and in society) often equals less freedom.  For instance, in Christian beliefs, the deity they consider God cannot do evil.  Neither can the angels who sided with Him during the fall from grace.  Moreover, ancient Jewish belief held that God could not interact with humans, lest said humans would die instantly--and so angels were sent to communicate (which is why you see the archangels Gabriel and Raphael doing most of the interacting in the Torah and it's supplementary books).  So, God can't be evil and can't interact with humans.  Angels can't be evil but can interact with humans.  And humans can be good, evil, indifferent, and interact or not interact as they please.  Yet God is most powerful.  Power, infinity, and all that goes with it carries innate limitations.  To bring it to a more human level, those with power such as politicians are not free to act as recklessly as you or I.  While you or I could get drunk at a party or cheat on our significant others (not that we would, but just saying), the repercussions for a politician who does such a thing would be farther reaching.  Yet the politician most certainly has more money, more power, more say in the system than we. 

The same is true of both Aeon and Death.  The gods may be powerful, but they are bound by rules that don't necessarily bind humans.  Death's rules state that he must interact with humans--it's his job, after all, to cut them down (and myths surrounding Death indicate the possibility of tricking Death, challenging Death, or entering into a contract with him).  Aeon's rules state that he cannot interact in any meaningful way (again, a balancing act).  I'm almost thinking that to do so, to make the choice to interact with humans, to fight in this battle would have repercussions for Aeon.  Right now, he's immortal because he exists out of time.  But if he were to actively enter time, to make himself one of the combatants...that would most certainly make him mortal, or at least able to be killed.  And if he were to die, well, that would be the end of time, wouldn't it?  The system would fall into disorder and Dracula would win.  Perhaps that's the point of Aeon's personal story, then--tossing caution to the wind and entering the fray, knowing his death would signal the end but tossing out one last ditch effort to fix things.

So, what role could Saint Germain play?  He's Aeon's herald, his messenger, his agent.  Perhaps all the chronomages are, perhaps not.  But Saint Germain, in my view, is important because he can go where Aeon cannot.  He's the police officer to Aeon's chief.  He's the private to Aeon's general.  He can also assess the damage on a more localized level.  Aeon can see the threads of all the timelines weaving in and out, but how can one gauge the damage done by Dracula from so far away?  Maybe that's why Germain showed up in Hector's timeline in Curse of Darkness...not just to observe, but to survey.  Of course, Germain is limited in what he can say and do in a given timeline, but he can certainly get a lot closer than Aeon can.  Also, Aeon probably has his hands full keeping time from completely unraveling at the endpoint (represented by Dracula's castle--more on this in posts to come).

Germain's relationship with Aeon also has thematic significance.  Aeon is a god, and Germain is his human agent.  This is the natural order.  Death is a god, but he is subservient (to a degree, as Death does call Dracula "master" often) to Dracula, a creature that has no business controlling gods in any way, shape, or form.  This is an unnatural or inverted order.  Also, both Germain and Aeon would have a healthy respect for each other, whereas Dracula and Death...the respect seems to be one-sided (Death obviously respects Dracula). 

And that's all well-and-good, but how can this be portrayed in the game itself?  What role, ultimately, does Germain play?  How important a role is it?  That's something we'll need to reach a consensus on.  My vote is that he's either the guy responsible for bringing the characters to Aeon at the end of time (where uber-Drac's castle currently resides), or he's an incidental character that shows up as certain characters are talking to Aeon and gives a status report.  He doesn't have to show up in all stories, but I know I'll be using him in one of those two capacities. 

How will Aeon be used?  Some have suggested that he shouldn't show up an explain the situation to the player until the end, sort of like a god sitting on a mountain who subtly moves the action of the game.  Others have written him as having a hand in everything from beginning to end.  Again, we'll need to come to a consensus.

Let me know what you guys and gals think--any questions, concerns, or comments, please share.  Thanks for taking the time to read.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 07:21:54 AM by Morrison »

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

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Nice to see you around these parts finally, good sir. :D

Fou wants to use Aeon in Charlotte's and Jonathan's stories on a very much interact-directly-with-people level from what I recall, though I may be mistaken. Shouldn't be too much of a stretch if we use the "drastic times call for drastic measures" idiom (?). At the very least, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Germaine would have precedent to appear in Trevor's and Hector's stories, and most anyone else from the time period of CoD (mostly Hector's really). :]

More as an aside and general reminder to everyone who'd like to contribute stories, I'd personally prefer it if Death were to refer to Uber Drac as "the" master and not "his/my" master. Still not sure what about the crimson stone compels Death to align itself with the wielder though. :T
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Offline Morrison

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Thanks.  It's good to be back.

The points you bring up are among those that would need to be ironed out before serious writing can begin.

The "drastic times" thing could work, but then Saint Germain becomes superfluous and pointless (not saying he wasn't before necessarily).  We could keep him confined to the stories for Trevor and Hector, but then I question why we need Germain at all, as he really won't add anything that Aeon can't already.

As for Death and the Crimson Stone, I'm afraid we may never know the answer to that.  LoS seems to be the only Castlevania game in town.

Offline Malphas

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Well, here is my take on Aeon, Germain and Death (only an opinion and perhaps not totally accurate with the series sometimes)
I have to agree with Germain. While I like it more than Aeon it is Aeon who seems more like the real deal. Germain could be sent as a servant, messenger or even partner (I always thought of him and Aeon in a way as Death is to Drac, similar in power but hierarchically inferior)
Still, Aeon seems to fit in most stories but, as Morrison said, Germain could be used in Trevor and Hector's stories OR even Grant and Sypha's. Sure Aeon can summon them, but perhaps they can simply follow the time rift which Germain set for Trevor. I personally think this would be cool with Grant's story, since in judgement when he meets Trevor he says that kind of feels like a secondary character (basically because he doesn't get the girl, lol) so we could say that a portal is set for Trevor and then Grant steps in before it closes. Then Germain (who is involved in Trevor's story) would explain him that he is not really the chosen one but that he can try as well (which would ignite a spark of rivalry for Grant, perhaps?)
But I digress, Aeon should be used in MOST of the stories (namely 75%?), but I think it would be good to make profit of as many possibilities as we can think to introduce Germain, either as a messenger/partner of Aeon or as an independent Chronomage with the same aim as him. Also, in some of the stories we could even avoid using both of them (namely in the cases of "the character is already living in Uber-Drac's dimension")
Also, Germain would be my preference in the stories which involve more humorous characters (in case we keep frog until the very end I would choose Germain to bring it)
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I'd personally prefer it if Death were to refer to Uber Drac as "the" master and not "his/my" master. Still not sure what about the crimson stone compels Death to align itself with the wielder though. :T
Agreed. THE master fits better.
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Also, both Germain and Aeon would have a healthy respect for each other, whereas Dracula and Death...the respect seems to be one-sided (Death obviously respects Dracula). 
Perhaps it was initially the crimson stone which compelled Death to follow Dracula's command, but it has been hinted in some Castlevania games that Death is basically Dracula's best friend forever. I think the respect might be mutual (although Dracula is the Lord of Darkness and hierarchically above Death) Perhaps Death's story could involve that conflict of Death having to choose between letting his Master's plan succeed or stopping him and try to change his mind. If player Death comes from an alternative universe the story is still valid, since it would be like Death putting it's feelings on the table in an epic, emotional vampiric drama!

Note: by changing his mind I don't mean something like "lol Drac be a good guy now" but something like:

Death:  "I blindly followed you since you became the Dark Lord and not even once I put any objection to your will. Now I realise it was a betrayal against you not to have stopped you before. Master, Death of everything is no revenge against God, but a mistake that would make the whole creation stagnate in an empty world without life nor death, without final defeat or victory for none of us. That is, Dark Lord, the reason I have come this far: to request you to find another way to have your revenge. I respect you and follow you with the same loyalty as always, but as your eternal servant I can not allow you to destroy yourself with this madness. I shall assume my responsibility, Master." <===Rough unedited text, beware.
Death would be kind of like a Samurai, defying it's Lord for the sake of it's Lord (not speaking about the Japanese alcoholic beverage, what I mean is that if Death was to defy it's Master/ or an Uber version of him, I think the reason would be that Death thinks it's the best it can do for it's Lord)
It would be kind of asking Drac to have his revenge against God in another way, like creating hell on earth or becoming God himself, corrupting creation or whatever non-stupid reasons we can think of.

Also, in the end it could involve 1/Drac understanding Death's actions before disappearing, Death goes back to it's dimension and tells normal Drac about this incident, which changes his plans and saves the day 2/ Drac understands Death's actions, dies (forever) and then Death takes it's life (Shakespearean tragedy style!) 3/ Dracula dies cursing Death and then Death awaits for his return, hoping someday his Master will understand but willing to kill him again. 4/ Drac dies and Death now knows that this is the fate that inevitably will come when the Dracula of Death's dimension succeeds, but until then, -he will remain loyal / try to change his mind.-

Also Also... is Death a HE, SHE or IT? I personally preffer IT to be genderless.

I hope it helped. Forgive my long text, my off-topic-ness and ignore my poor (but inevitable) bitter humor.

Offline Morrison

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Anyone else care to clock in?

Oh, also a point:

It was decided long ago (on the old board) that the Death that exists in this game as a boss is the same Death that exists in the main timeline.  Also, playable Death is the same Death.

I don't see why we can't assign Death the pronoun "it".  Throughout history the Grim Reaper has been considered a masculine entity, and in modern times, Death has been considered female (the Marvel Universe and Gaiman's "Sandman" series, among others).  So why not neuter?  Makes more sense, anyway.

Offline Zetheraxza

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I have yet to write my input on this. I had paragraphs done for the subject but it got deleted accidentally so I will post the subject of God, Time & Death in both IGA's and LoS's perspective of CV timeline sometime today or next day. The thing is that there's so many bridges between Quantum Mechanics, Metaphysical thinking when it comes to Aeon being the Guardian of time & Death being the end of all things being personified. And then there is the Video Game series which intertwines these entities in them with Vampire Mythos and original content. So I don't even know where to begin from. Iga also didn't think much on this either. The idea of time reaper was too ridiculous, not just that but we had the almighty Galamoth which didn't want to screw up the universe, no, he wanted Dracula's THRONE first. For a being SO ancient, and judgement taking place in about 1800s, what has Mathias done in 800 years in which even an Ancient God couldn't accomplish? There is Death, end of all things which contradicts with time in which it moves forward even after end of all things, you can't destroy time. Time Reaper, destroyer of Time. Honestly I don't even know where to begin this from but I still have paragraphs to write for what Death & Aeon can be.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 01:22:04 AM by Zetheraxza »
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Offline Malphas

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Well, time can be disrupted to a certain extent (for example, Chronomages can)
Now let's get a bit metaphysical: imagine that Dracula has gathered so much power that his reality has managed to escape time, so no matter if you sent a terminator to kill young Mathias, Uber-Drac would not cease to exist. But not only that; Dracula's power keeps growing so the dimension that has been corrupted by him is starting to destroy the whole web of time, just like a black hole, creating one hell of a chaos and eventually leading to absolutely everything being destroyed, even time. This would lead to a perpetual stagnation in the absolute nothingness where nothing exists, nothing happens and time becomes a meaningless concept. That means that the idea of nothingness is not even an empty space or a hole or darkness, it's 100% nonexistence and it's actually a hard concept to deal with. I think there is no problem with death of time if we interpret it as "all timelines get messed up but ultimately it doesn't matter because the absolute zero is left, changing the concept of time into nothing, or at least into something totally meaningless" it's like picking up a wonderful piece of tapestry with a beautiful picture and reducing it to a pile of messy threads or like disorganizing all the letters of a book. There is no linearity and not even a cycle. Only chaos. What do you think about it?

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 03:45:40 PM »
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one thing i've been thinking about lately, is that both aeon and cv death should probably be related only to the castlevania reality. i don't want to go and rewrite other series' canon just like that and force them into other people's worlds where they don't belong.

that's why i think aeon shouldn't have too much info or any control over separate realities like the touhou world, duke's/ronald's reality etc, and cv death shouldn't have anything to do with touhou's komachi (who is only one of many. touhou uses japanese mythology which as far as i know has many separate lesser grim reapers serving a judge, not just one).

though for series without any real canon like the cellphone castlevania ripoffs, i think inserting them into cv's reality should be ok.
Dracula was here

Offline CrimsonKirie

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 12:53:03 AM »
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I think Komachi's role is similar to the Ferryman who takes the departed across the river styx, she has nothing to do with a persons death,
Whereas Death actually has a quote in CV: Judgment that goes something like 'I am the God who choses who lives and who dies.'

Offline Malphas

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 07:39:47 AM »
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Well, in Greek mythology Kharon only leads the dead to the other side but doesn't actually reap them like Death. Kharon is more of a guide and Death a collector. I interpreted that Castlevania's ferryman links the mortal plane with hell itself, that's why he appears in a few castlevania games.
In OoE Shanoa has to summon Cerberus, the guardian dog of hell (or Greek Tartarus, for picky people) in order to keep advancing so it makes sense that Dracula's castle is deeply linked to hell.

Offline VictorBorAng

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 05:44:41 PM »
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Talking about Metaphysics...

There is one theory that says that there are two kinds of multiverse:

==> ones that are similar to each other that together they make a bubble.

==> and others that are totally different from each other, that are different bubbles.

http://universe-review.ca/I02-21-universes.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Multiverse.png

so, Aeon and Death are the gods of the Castlevania bubble, and thus have no power over other bubbles.

this way we can have many gods of time and death (from different bubbles).

this means that Uber-Dracula powers are so destructive that it is threatening others BUBBLES, in this case the Touhouverse, Dukenukemverse, Ronaldverse, and many other verses.

what if, Aeon and St.Germain appears respectively to a character power level? in other words: they start sending week people (jonafag), and as they are defeated, they send stronger ones, the more people are defeated the more desespareate they become, so Aeon starts joning the fray, in the end they go to the fight themselves.

Due to the nature of the "timerifft/time end/time blackhole" and the castle (now totally warped by chaos) multiple things are happening at the same time, and it is impossible to know the outcome. This way we can have different stories that are interlinked but have different pepole defeating Uber-Dracula. in the end only a single person defeated him, but at the same time EVERYONE defeated him. It could be the reason for the alternate endings.

Oh, and if Aeon is defeated... the Toad enters in the fray. LOL (click in the link bellow to know Why) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClockRoaches)

OFF topic(or not): What if we made a power level for the characters? cause i'm sure that, gameplay aside, Jonathan is weaker than Soma, Alucard and Shanoa. (by the way i DON'T WANT TO START A FLAME WAR with this , thank you )

(click to show/hide)

Offline FelixFalora

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 08:20:33 PM »
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OFF topic(or not): What if we made a power level for the characters? cause i'm sure that, gameplay aside, Jonathan is weaker than Soma, Alucard and Shanoa. (by the way i DON'T WANT TO START A FLAME WAR with this , thank you )

Problem: There's no true way to judge the power of a character as all of the characters, save the monsters and extra characters, have had their fair share of defeating Dracula, most of them human at that. I don't really think there's any point in putting a number to the character's potential as it's always dependent on the player using them as is. (Besides, it'd be a moot point because Death and Aeon would immediately have the highest stats due to being gods. Then, if you look at the characters that aren't gods and have extra characters on, it's probably Reimu and Sakuya because Touhou characters are stupidly OP. Take away extras and don't count Death and Aeon, then maybe you have a discussion for who the most powerful is.)

However, we are forgiven.

Offline VictorBorAng

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 10:52:55 PM »
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Well, the """"power level"""" thing would have NO EFFECT on game-play or stats. it is just a for fun thing.

BTW there are SOME, and very few, indicators of powers:

Julius is the strongest Belmont on the normal timeline,
Richer comes second, I guess.
Juste is the most skilled with magic due to being quite close to the blood related Belnades/Fernandez clan, witch explain his BLUE aura  and usage of magic books.(this might not be cannon)
Trevor and Simon may be in similar "power levels" (but considering Simon fought a second time, with  never healing/decomposing wounds, he is more badass)
Gabriel, from the LoS timeline, defated the devil himself. so he is VERY STRONG

The Morisons, due to being a secondary family are weaker then the Belmonts.

The Belnades are the strongest in Europe in the magic fields.

Alucard is a Vampire, and Soma is Dracula reincarnation, so they are quite powerfull

Nathan isn't a belmont nor have the vampire killer, so he is quite week (but no less Badass)

Hammer is a trained man and have a powerfull arsenal, but is a week person compared to the guys above. (witch makes him even more badass).

the Duke is the Duke, nuff said (a.k.a PURE BADASS)


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Touhou characters are stupidly OP

Making them the last option before drastic measures.

By the way: easy explanation to explain why the bosses are as hard to Aeon and Death, as they are for others week characters: Uber-Dracula used their souls to Increase his and his minions strength.
Jonathan just made them weaker (this could be his function, poor guy, always having to do Heroic Sacrifices...)

Or am i messing TOO MUCH with the game story?

Oh Idea for Aeon death: Stylized time death (the screen REALY faded to black, in the most literal way possible). (or a Fourth-wall-braking-Grimm-Very-VERY-GRIMM effect: the screen shatters and the pieces slowly desapear, revealing a Grimm game-over message (like: Time has come to an end) . (for boss batles (in Survival)  he just falls to the ground, weekend and uses time control to escape)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:19:05 PM by VictorBorAng »

Offline Morrison

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 02:59:48 AM »
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To my way of thinking, interacting with the timeline carries a grave price for Aeon: mortality.

Offline ThePlotTwist

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Re: Aeon and St. Germain (and Death and Dracula) -- my take on their roles
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 03:34:09 PM »
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There is no strongest Belmont, only "Strongest vampire hunter of their respective time" as I understand it.  Also, I thought that "Aeon" was a "physical manifestation of Time created to interact with the material world" and thus could be killed (only to be replaced by another Aeon by Time itself).


« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 02:32:26 AM by Morrison »

 

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