February 18, 2019, 11:50:08 PM

Author Topic: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus  (Read 14708 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2012, 01:34:42 AM »
0
My problem with Shaft possessing Uber-Dracula is that, in the posited scenario, everyone becomes a pawn in Shaft's bid for power.  While I don't deny that it would be an interesting sub-story (something akin almost to the Doctor Who Unbound audio drama entitled "He Jests At Scars..."), I don't think it fits with the overall plan for this game.

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2012, 03:15:24 AM »
0
Quote
Olrox is already the conniving backstabber
BUT Olrox wants power for himself to be the star of the show, Shaft wants Dracula to be in power and respects him because he has decided to use that power to create absolute chaos. Nevertheless, Dracula is the ultimate boss and I agree that it would not be so impressive if he just was left as someone's puppet.

Quote
I vow to guide this world into destruction and chaos.
Everyone in life wants something and except true friends like Death people tend to row in their own direction. Shaft has the same goal as Dracula, but should Dracula move away from that goal then Shaft would need to do something or else their whole association would become useless. Still, with this I'm just trying to figure out why would Shaft help Dracula and looking for alternatives.

But going back simply to Shaft's dimension:

Shaft's body, dimension and "journey":
(click to show/hide)

Shaft's purpose:
(click to show/hide)

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2012, 03:31:04 AM »
0
Shaft would likely help Dracula because he's a fanatic, the psychology behind which is very complicated.  It's something we actually see in our reality everyday--from the whackos who believe in Hubbard's Scientology to the compounds of Mormon child molesters who occupy the desert states of the United States.  Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Heaven's Gate Cult.

Shaft simply does what he does because Dracula is someone who can and will tell him it's okay to be a killer, a rapist, a monster--that it's okay to give into the predatory side of humanity, the animal within us all...that it's okay to fall into the hole in human existence, the void, the emptiness inside us all, and to never come out.  In Shaft's mind, Dracula justifies his dark predilections.  That's how fanatics operate.  They only want someone to justify their monstrous actions, to legitimize their deviant tendencies.

Offline (yber])ragon10]{

  • LIGHT - [Machine/Effect]
  • moderator
  • super member
  • *****
  • Posts: 633
  • "For Everlasting Peace."
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2012, 12:17:09 AM »
0
... true friends like Death...

I hope you realize that acknowledging in-fandom jokes is the worst thing that a game in a franchise (fan or otherwise) can do. Remember how everyone joked about how useless Dracula was because he'd failed to destroy the world even thought he was revived so many times? Remember how not funny it was when Brauner out and said the same thing as his motivation in PoR? >_>

... Yeah. :P
"So you know cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come and talk to you it's great. But if you try to talk to them it doesn't always go so well."
~ Shigeru Miyamoto

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2012, 03:03:59 AM »
0
Quote
I hope you realize that acknowledging in-fandom jokes is the worst thing that a game in a franchise (fan or otherwise) can do. Remember how everyone joked about how useless Dracula was because he'd failed to destroy the world even thought he was revived so many times? Remember how not funny it was when Brauner out and said the same thing as his motivation in PoR? >_>
I think we said about "our" canon that Death has been ALWAYS on Dracula's side and even when it fights against Dracula it does it to serve it's Lord. You can call it true friend, mindless minion or faithful guy who works for free. Death is a God, what can Dracula offer Death to make it serve him?

Fandom jokes aside I think Death and Dracula have a relationship similar to friendship, in a way, and even in judgement (not the best example but Castlevania game after all) has been suggested that Death serves Dracula for that reason (it's one of the possible interpretations even though it can be considered adaptation of the "fandom-joke-thing" to the game) I don't think is such a terrible idea if developed properly; let's say Death happens to like the fact that Dracula defies God and fights to destroy the multiverse by himself... and even has a chance to succeed! I say Death started serving Dracula out of curiosity, to see how far Drac could go, but then it happened to get attached to him in an almost friend-like behavior (or samurai-like)


Besides that, I was simply explaining that people tend to go on their own, especially if they have power. No matter how bad the "joke" is I do hope you get my point on that part.

Quote
Shaft would likely help Dracula because he's a fanatic, the psychology behind which is very complicated.

Thanks, got it, I will try to make Shaft more fanatic.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 01:50:45 AM by Malphas »

Offline Fou-Lu

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 81
  • Respect: +2
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 03:39:37 AM »
0
Death serves the Dark Lord, using the Crimson stone as a sort of contract.  It does not actually matter who the Dark Lord is.

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 07:43:46 AM »
0
I think we said about "our" canon that Death has been ALWAYS on Dracula's side and even when it fights against Dracula it does it to serve it's Lord. You can call it true friend, mindless minion or faithful guy who works for free. Death is a God, what can Dracula offer Death to make it serve him?

Fandom jokes aside I think Death and Dracula have a relationship similar to frienship, in a way, and even in judgement (not the best example but Castlevania game after all) has been suggested that Death serves Dracula for that reason (it's one of the possible interpretations even though it can be considered adaptation of the "fandom-joke-thing" to the game) I don't think is such a terrible idea if developed properly; let's say Death happens to like the fact that Dracula defies God and fights to destroy the multiverse by himself... and even has a chance to succeed! I say Death started serving Dracula out of curiosity, to see how far Drac could go, but then it happened to get attached to him in an almost friend-like behavior (or samurai-like)


Besides that, I was simply explaining that people tend to go on their own, especially if they have power. No matter how bad the "joke" is I do hope you get my point on that part.

Thanks, got it, I will try to make Shaft more fanatic.

Death serves the Dark Lord, using the Crimson stone as a sort of contract.  It does not actually matter who the Dark Lord is.

Yeah...in ancient myth, legend, and folklore, supernatural beings who were a lot more powerful than regular humans were governed by some pretty bizarre rules that rendered them powerless and subservient if a mortal met certain conditions.  Hell, even the Superman villain Mr. Mxyzptlk utilizes this motif to a degree--the fifth-dimensional mischief maker can turn our reality inside-out and upside-down, but if he's tricked into saying his name backwards, he's banned from our dimension for a period of time.  When put under a microscope, it seems really backwards that a mere mortal--undead or otherwise--should be able to have control over a being that exists on a higher plane.  I mean, it's not enough that Dracula's a vampire and, as such, has attained a degree of immortality.  No, he has to assert a little control over the physical embodiment of a force of nature, as well.  That said, that's kind of the cool thing about the Dracula/Death dynamic: it's an inversion of the natural order. 

That said, Fou's view of the Crimson Stone as a sort of contract is right on the money, IMO.  It's just one of those things that has no escape clause for Death.  Now, whether he likes being in Dracula's army or not is up to interpretation...I think that Castlevania has taken pains to show that Death is one of Dracula's more loyal generals, likely because he's unencumbered by a desire for Dracula's power (like, say, Olrox or Galamoth might be).  Whether or not the two are "friends", I can't say with any certainty.  Death certainly has a healthy respect for Dracula, but I'm not sure it's a two-way street.  Then again, we've seen very little interaction between them to know for sure.

As for Shaft, yeah, definitely fanatic.  He's loyal for a different reason than Death.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2012, 06:34:04 PM »
0
Someone around here said that Shaft looks "Ghostly" on SotN, and that he was killed by Richter on RoB, implying that the SotN Shaft is in fact his orbs playing their master as happened in RoB when Richter faced Ghost Shaft.

I say that he is not a ghost nor an illusion created by the orbs. He is the real deal. Just notice how the translucent Shaft floats towards the center of the giant orb thing where his silhouette is ALREADY positioned, sitting on a "trance" state. This translucent Shaft is actually his Mental Projection. It is his mind avatar appearing in front of Alucard as, it seems, that Shaft himself cannot lose control over the ritual he is carrying over to ressurrect Dracula. It is like he is multitasking and just separated a small fraction of his mind to talk to Alucard and gain enough time to finish the ritual.

So, what happened in RoB? I actually think that Richter never fought the TRUE Shaft. It was a Doombot Gambit. In SotN we see that Richter has been taken control over by Shaft. How did that happen?? It happened when he destroyed the fake one in RoB. Also, we see that upon his defeat in RoB, Shaft "vanishes". We never see him staying dead there, bleeding or exploding or even bursting in flames. He just VANISHES. What if in fact Richter fought another of his mind avatars and Shaft used this, knowing beforehand that he couldn't ever defeat Richter, thus deciding to take control of his mind?

So yeah, I think that Shaft died for real at Alucard's hands (Also, I think that the final piece to bring Dracula back is a sacrifice, and by killing Shaft, Alucard unknowingly finished the ritual, but it's just me being an epiletic tree).

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2012, 10:31:53 PM »
0
Someone around here said that Shaft looks "Ghostly" on SotN, and that he was killed by Richter on RoB, implying that the SotN Shaft is in fact his orbs playing their master as happened in RoB when Richter faced Ghost Shaft.

I say that he is not a ghost nor an illusion created by the orbs. He is the real deal. Just notice how the translucent Shaft floats towards the center of the giant orb thing where his silhouette is ALREADY positioned, sitting on a "trance" state. This translucent Shaft is actually his Mental Projection. It is his mind avatar appearing in front of Alucard as, it seems, that Shaft himself cannot lose control over the ritual he is carrying over to ressurrect Dracula. It is like he is multitasking and just separated a small fraction of his mind to talk to Alucard and gain enough time to finish the ritual.

So, what happened in RoB? I actually think that Richter never fought the TRUE Shaft. It was a Doombot Gambit. In SotN we see that Richter has been taken control over by Shaft. How did that happen?? It happened when he destroyed the fake one in RoB. Also, we see that upon his defeat in RoB, Shaft "vanishes". We never see him staying dead there, bleeding or exploding or even bursting in flames. He just VANISHES. What if in fact Richter fought another of his mind avatars and Shaft used this, knowing beforehand that he couldn't ever defeat Richter, thus deciding to take control of his mind?

So yeah, I think that Shaft died for real at Alucard's hands (Also, I think that the final piece to bring Dracula back is a sacrifice, and by killing Shaft, Alucard unknowingly finished the ritual, but it's just me being an epiletic tree).

You know what?  I really like that explanation.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2012, 11:13:48 PM »
0
Oh thank you ^^
I did not elaborate in it enough, because I though it would become too long to read.
but I REALLY want to contribute with the storyline. Is there something unwritten in which I could give my word..??

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 11:23:49 PM »
0
Two words: Mind Blown. I like it too. It kind of gives the feeling that Shaft has always a hidden ace somewhere.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 11:39:40 PM »
0
Also, I've been reading about Death - Dracula relation and what makes Death be Dracula's servant.

Sometime ago, I wrote a story about the final battle between Dracula and Julius (Which would become a manga, which I still have the starting drawings, but never came to be.)
There, I tried to explain why Dracula was always reborn and what part on his plan Death plays, and from where all his minions come and how the castle came to be.

Essentially, Dracula has Death under his control through the Crimson Stone, which was never seen again. The Crimson Stone's apparent power is to trap souls inside so it powers up it's master (That being Dracula). So, where is the Crimson Stone and why was it never mentioned again.

It was NEVER gone. Dracula used the stone's raw power and from it created Castlevania itself. The Crimson Stone IS the Castle, a giant soul trap that enslaves the souls of everyone who steps inside it (Which would explain why so many normal characters from the official game become madly evil after entering the castle. Dracula's "influence" is in fact the power of the stone serving it's master). But there's a limit to it though. Only the souls of non-magical beings are trapped there, to be reused as minions to Dracula. That's why no hero from the official games were affected by it's influence (Charlotte herself explains the Castle's influence over non-magical beings.). However, the Belmonts ARE mortal and non-magical beings, so why they weren't affected? They weren't because they had the magical whip on their possession which briefly protected them against the Castle's control. However, it only lasted while the whip was under their possession.

Dracula's plan all along was to, eventually, use the Belmont's souls trapped inside the Castle to ressurrect himself more powerful each time. Their souls were binded to the Crimson Stone's power since they first set foot inside the Castle, but it's power was unable to grasp their souls at the moment because they had the whip on their possession, however, as soon as they passed the whip ahead and/or died, their soul would be promptly collected by the Stone/Castle, giving meaning to the effect of Death's contract with Dracula to power up Dracula's next ressurrection.

AGAIN note that it's part of the fanfiction I wrote. I am posting it here because, maybe, something from it can be used!

Then, Death serves Dracula because the Stone was never gone, and was used to create the Castle itself all along. On my fanfiction, Death's job was, specifically, to keep the souls of the Belmonts trapped inside the Clock Tower (Hence why Death is almost always found there, and hence why he is Dracula's right hand man and HENCE why he is able to ressurrect Dracula. He uses Belmont souls to do it.). Julius, on the fic, would eventually learn of this when fighting Death, and would free his ancestor's souls, gaining their power for himself and being able to kick Drac's butt to oblivion with every Belmont's power.

So, all in all, my theory is that Dracula's Castle was made using the Crimson Stone as a giant soul trap. Death's job is to use these souls to bring him back, and he serves Dracula because the stone was never gone, and thus, the contract persists.

There is some "plot holes" but because I did not explain EVERYTHING. I believe this is enough to give an idea of what I think on their relationship.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 11:50:05 PM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline Morrison

  • moderator
  • full member
  • *****
  • Posts: 97
  • i'm a llama.
  • Respect: +5
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »
0
When you're explaining something to me, you'll want to eliminate as many plot holes as you can--because those are what I'll notice first. 

With the Shaft explanation, you expanded upon evidence that existed within RoB and SotN.  With the Crimson Stone explanation, you seem to have less evidence to support it.

Offline ThePlotTwist

  • gold member
  • *****
  • Posts: 416
  • My eyes can see everything.
  • Respect: +29
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2012, 12:29:04 AM »
0
Okay soooo here we go...

Initially I though "Why the Crimson Stone is never mentioned again...?"
Obviously, it could not be "explained" because Lament of Innocence came way after the series had established itself and the Stone was not even been mentioned before LoI. So I though "Wait... Walter was the Lord of his own Castle... He had minions and such and he had the Ebony Stone under it's power...". That game explains that to a vampire to be the absolute most powerful, he needs to have either Crimson, Ebony, or both stones. So I though "Maybe, Dracula did something else with the Stone... For him to become so powerful, he must have used the stone to something important. Also... Where did Dracula's Castle come from...?" Well, his castle may have been a common manor. He simply gathered wealth and bought one, but, we learned that Drac has a true, demonic castle, which was described as "a creature of chaos" and that "Dracula obtained it through a pact with the Devil" or that the Castle IS a demon itself. Dracula has the Power of Dominance, which allows him to control the souls of his enemies, but where did this power come from...? What is the power of the Crimson Stone, again? Yeah, his "Dominance" may have come from the Stone, but it was done in a more ingenious way. Dracula could not go and start "dominancing" every man that happened to stumble on his path, and, maybe, Walter's soul took quite a large part of the stone's power, seeing as it was enough to turn Mathias into a complete vampire Dark Lord. So, Dracula was already bound to the stone, but to grow ever more powerful, he needed more souls. My theory is that Dracula used the Crimson Stone to build the demon castle, so he could expand his power of dominance as Walter soul was now part of himself (He "cloaks" Walter on himself, just as he "cloaked" himself on Isaac Laforeze to be embodied again. What keeps him not becoming another Walter is his binding with the stone, which keeps Walter's essence in check but his vampire power at Mathias's disposal forever).

So, we do too know that Julius defeated Dracula by separating him from the Castle (Maybe, through the learning of Charlotte Aulin on Brauner's painting technique). Dracula could only be separated from his ressurrecting cycle if he was separated from the thing that kept him ressurrecting. The Crimson Stone feeds him souls so he can come back. Julius separated him from the Castle. So, if Dracula is separated from one of these itens he isn't able to come back, and one of these itens is gone and either one of them was never seen together with the other, at the same time. So, I highly believe that the Crimson Stone, or whatever it is made of, was used to build the Castle, because it seems to be the main thing that can bring back Dracula from the dead.

One more thing the enforces my theory is that, apparently, Dracula comes back in times of desperation for mankind (as many a game estated). These times are, coincidentally, bound to have a ton of deaths, and a ton of stray souls for the Crimson/Castle to collect and reemerge so Dracula has a "home" to reawake in. And Death is the Stone/Castle's "Hands" to do it, to collect those souls. Although Death is "dead" by the end of each game, his "Death effect" persists. And, curiously, we see that almost always, Death is awake BEFORE Dracula, implying that his job is to bring Dracula back by taking souls to the Stone/Castle through the contract he has with Dracula.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:38:09 AM by ThePlotTwist »

Offline Malphas

  • super member
  • ******
  • Posts: 529
  • Lord of the unread.
  • Respect: +21
Re: Boss Origins -- Discussion & Consensus
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2012, 11:56:29 AM »
0
Quote
My theory is that Dracula used the Crimson Stone to build the demon castle, so he could expand his power of dominance as Walter soul was now part of himself (He "cloaks" Walter on himself, just as he "cloaked" himself on Isaac Laforeze to be embodied again. What keeps him not becoming another Walter is his binding with the stone, which keeps Walter's essence in check but his vampire power at Mathias's disposal forever).

I like to see it as a struggle between wills. The strongest will prevails, the weak is absorbed and when things are really balanced then the strongest still prevails, but inherits some of the traits of the other.

But with Isaac and Hector is not quite the same. Isaac already has a part of Dracula within so his soul will inevitably lose the willpower struggle with little to no chance to fight back (and that, my friends, is what happens when you don't read all the terms and conditions!)
I always thought that Isaac and Hector had been trained to become not only "two powerful generals", but also Dracula's extra lives, which would allow him to return earlier and give the Belmonts a happy surprise. Hector manages to break free from Dracula's curse by renouncing his ties with Dracula and thus, even when he regains them Isaac is a much better vessel than him (and still, Hector was close to become Drac)

As for the Demon Castle I think it's actually created from the Crimson Stone, if not another form of the stone itself, and absorbs the soul of any person who dies in there (and finally, according to IGA, those souls are transformed into candles, lol)

Mod Edit: Can't read anything if you're doing quoteception. :P
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 01:12:01 AM by (yber])ragon10]{ »